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Episode 239
January 14, 2022

Relationship Commerce

Today, Brian sits down with Eddie Hsieh, Head of Alliances at Ordergroove, and Daniel Kim, Director of eCommerce at Hawaii Volcanic Beverages to chat about relationship commerce, acquisitions, and the customer relationship experience. Listen now!

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this episode sponsored by

Connecting Acquisition Back to Subscription

  • Hawaii Volcanic Beverages is a purpose-driven ultra-premium alkaline water and active lifestyle brand based in Hawaii. 
  • Ordergroove helps innovative brands enable Relationship Commerce with successful subscription, predictive reorder, and membership experiences.
  • “Water brands have a tremendous opportunity in really high, densely populated metropolitan areas…no one wants to lug around a case of water in the subway, walk up 10 flights of stairs to their apartment on a monthly basis. So why not just order it online?” -Daniel
  • There are three major parts of relationship commerce. How you get them to enroll, the way you retain them, and the way you extend lifetime value. 
  • “Ordergroove provides this platform or this flexibility out of the box for people.” -Eddie
  • “What eCommerce enables us to do is eliminate those barriers of not having those distribution points to where even if we have someone come all the way from New York to Hawaii to buy our water and they want to take that product home with them, they can still jump on our website and get a case delivered to them all the way in New York.”-Daniel

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Brian: [00:01:27] Hello and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast about next generation of commerce. I'm your host, Brian, and today I have two exciting guests with me. This is going to be a really fun episode. I have Eddie Hsieh, Head of Alliances at Ordergroove, and Daniel Kim, Director of eCommerce at Hawaii Volcanic Beverages. Welcome, Daniel and Eddie.

Eddie: [00:01:49] Thank you.

Daniel: [00:01:50] Thanks for having us.

Brian: [00:01:51] So I would love to start just by hearing a little bit about each of you, and then we'll dive a little bit into what we're going to talk about today. But Daniel, tell me a little bit about yourself, your role as Director of eCommerce at Hawaii Volcanic, and how you got involved and a little bit about the brand as well.

Daniel: [00:02:13] Yeah, I'd be happy to. So my name is Daniel Kim. I'm Head of eCommerce at Hawaii Volcanic. I joined the company about two years ago as they were looking to utilize eCommerce to really connect with their customers. They didn't have distribution points to access. So prior to that, I was with a company called Symphony Commerce. We provided eCommerce technology and services to a number of CPG brands in the space. Some of the industry leaders out there and where I really got my boot camp into the world of eCommerce and really got to understand the relationship eCommerce and the technology plays with the brand's relationship with their customers. Hawaii Volcanic was founded in 2012. Started off as a small regional water brand in the state of Hawaii. But as more and more tourists demanded that we figure out a way to get product to them in the mainland, we thought it would be a perfect opportunity to launch the brand in the continental US and utilize brick and mortar distribution partners and eCommerce to really get that product in their hands.

Brian: [00:03:18] Yeah, that's amazing. It must be really, really good water. And in fact, it is. I've had it before. It's delicious. Speaking of water, I was actually just at a water tasting recently, which I thought was incredible. Got to try different types of water. It's amazing to me how much of a difference there is in taste from water to water. They actually legitimately have different tasting notes depending on where the water is from and how it was bottled and contained. And there's just a lot of different factors. I had one water that even had a little bit of like salinity to it. I was like, wow, this tastes almost kind of brackish. Like, I'm drinking a little bit of like almost like ocean water. But it was actually really good. I really liked it. {laughter} So, yeah, water is such a cool industry. Probably underappreciated, although probably not by Volcanic. Eddie, tell me a little bit about yourself and Ordergroove.

Eddie: [00:04:20] Absolutely. First of all, I don't think I have the palette to be able to differentiate high quality water, but I could be wrong. So you have to take me next time you try that, Brian. Yeah, my name's Eddie Hsieh. I am the Head of Partnerships at Ordergroove. I've been here for about six months, building out our agency and also our platform relationships. We are a subscription and recurring revenue platform, and we've been around for almost a decade, for the first half serving really the enterprise space and having people like Home Depot, L'Oreal, Estee Lauder, The Honest Company really build out a subscription program on our platform. And more recently, we've been having great success and really helping brands, such as Daniel works at really grow their subscription program from nothing. So we're a relationship commerce platform, we all like to say. Also like to say for businesses of any sizes. And I've been here for six months previously at Shopify Plus for three and a half years, and that's where we met, Brian. So I spent a good part of that managing the largest design and development agencies on the West Coast in the US and then later the last 18 months or so, managing global size. So really going upmarket as Shopify Plus traversed the true enterprise space. So thanks for having me.

Brian: [00:05:29] Yeah, it's super cool to have you. We have known each other for years and your time at Shopify. Great partner and super knowledgeable in the space. So this is going to be a really fun episode. So as you can imagine, I think what I liked something you just said, Eddie, which was you're not a subscription platform, you're what did you say, relationship platform?

Eddie: [00:05:53] Relationship commerce. Correct.

Brian: [00:05:54] Relationship commerce platform. And I think this is really important to this conversation today because, Daniel, as you came on to Hawaii Volcanic, I would imagine that you were like, "Ok, I'm taking an eCommerce role at of water company. What does this mean?" How did you approach it when you first joined?

Daniel: [00:06:16] Yeah. You know, luckily, I had some experience with doing this at Symphony Commerce. At Symphony Commerce, I was very skeptical. Who's going to go on a website, buy water online, and get it delivered to their home when a grocery store is just five minutes away and they can go and pick up as much water they want? But at Symphony Commerce, we helped launch a large national water brand onto a platform, and we quickly realized, or I quickly realized, that I was dead wrong.  [00:06:47]One of the stories I love telling is these water brands have a tremendous opportunity in really high, densely populated metropolitan areas. So some of the first orders that we got were in the city of New York City. Very crowded. A lot of times people are taking public transportation to get around to places, and that's when it hit me in the face and it was like, "Well, of course, they're going to want to order water online and get it delivered to their door." You know, no one wants to lug around a case of water in the subway, walk up 10 flights of stairs to their apartment on a monthly basis. So why not just order it online? And so after that experience, I became very bullish and excited about the opportunity to sell water online and how water brands like Hawaii Volcanic can utilize the eCommerce to connect with their customers and manage those relationships with their customers. [00:07:44]

Brian: [00:07:45] Yeah, that's really cool. I actually had a similar experience a few years back in the before time. I was at a conference and heard a beverage brand speaking, and they said that 50 percent of their transactions were coming from direct to consumer online. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, direct to consumer can be anything." Like literally anything can be sell direct to consumer. If we're selling water direct to consumer. And it makes sense. I think you nailed it. Actually when you have a product as high quality, as Hawaii Volcanic where people need to go find it and get it from a specific store or whatever, it's going to be much more convenient and a much better experience for them to just interact directly with the brand instead of having to effectively go accomplish their last mile shipping themselves, which takes up time and money. You've got to pay for the subway. You've got to pay for your gas if you're in a suburb. There are costs to shopping in store and there's also an opportunity cost of what you could be doing with that time. You're really just out of water, you probably don't need to take a trip to the store just to go buy water. Or that's another thing you might run out of water, and you're not planning to go to that store where you get your water for a while, then you end up just being out of water.

Daniel: [00:09:11] Yeah.

Brian: [00:09:12] And so I really think that the way that you described it, Eddie, as a relationship platform is actually the right way to think about it. We think of subscription boxes. It's just like, oh, Birchbox. Or "Oh, it's my Amazon Subscribe and Save." No, this is actually a tool for building trust and relationship with your customers. Eddie, tell me a few other ways that you've seen where people have been leveraging the platform to help build that relationship. And it's beyond just something shows up in my doorstep once a month.

Eddie: [00:09:48] Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's three major parts of relationship commerce and subscriptions in general. It's how you get them to enroll into subscription program, the way you retain them, and the way you extend LTV of these customers. And the entire time if you want to extend LTV and make sure that they're loyal customers that keep coming back and keep subscribing to your services, you have to make sure that they're happy. So one very real example is that the enrollment journey for most platforms isn't very difficult. It's auto replenishment 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Whatever vertical you're in, it's going to differ. But when it comes to retaining these clients or these customers, that's kind of where Ordergroove sets itself apart. So what we call the Subscription Management Interface, the customer portal where they log into, there's a lot of things that these customers can do. So if you're overstocked on water for the month and you're going to go on vacation, you can easily skip that delivery. You could change dates if you're going to be back on the right day or some day in the future. You can change the quantity if you're a little overstuffed, but you know you're going to need it towards the end of that subscription. Whatever it may be, Ordergroove provides this platform or this flexibility out of the box for people like Hawaii Volcanic beverages. And we see the most common reason why people turn or leave subscription programs is because they're overstocked, right? They get a delivery, and they're like, "I already would have water. Here's another six cases water. I'm going to go in and actually cancel the subscription." So actually giving them an opportunity and proactively reaching out to say, "Hey, are you overstocked? Would you like to skip this or change quantities or change SKUs before the next shipment?" is a huge advantage to make sure that you retain that customer and extend their LTV. So almost counterintuitive. But sometimes you want to do the take away where it's like, "Hey, why don't you skip this one if you're overstocked?" And then it extends the lifetime value of that customer, so those things are all out of the box for Ordergroove and hopefully, Daniel, I believe you're leveraging everything according to our customer team. So you're having a ton of success with that.

Daniel: [00:11:36] Yeah, 100 percent. I think for us, when it comes down to subscriptions, we as a brand just look at it as the lifeblood of our eCommerce business. And as we continue to deal with rising acquisition costs of getting a new customer, having a really healthy subscription base allows us to be more aggressive at getting new customers. And by leveraging a platform like Ordergroove to make sure that we retain our existing subscribers and make it easy for new subscribers to sign on really just gives us a lot of confidence to really go aggressive on our marketing budget, to go after those new customers and continue growing the brand. But without a platform like Ordergroove, making it convenient for our customers to manage their subscription when life changes, then we'd be in a world of hurt right now.

Brian: [00:12:25] That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think that connecting acquisition back to subscription is really interesting as well because, you know, kind of connecting the point you made earlier about the urban dweller and how it's actually way more convenient and way better experience to just have a subscription. I would imagine that you're even like targeting and, you know, using those customers in those regions and getting more specific with your marketing campaigns around subscription specifically. And it's almost like an addition to the product when you think about it, like the fact that you can get it via subscription actually makes it part of the product offering. I order a lot of things on subscription myself. It's funny you say, Eddie, that like over subscription is usually a problem. I often find myself under subscribed, and that leads to different sorts of behaviors. Daniel, tell me a little bit about how you handle sort of the oversubscription versus under subscription problem and what opportunities that presents you with.

Daniel: [00:13:44] Yeah, 100 percent. You know, the nice thing about Ordergroove is it does a lot of the work for us, and they proactively send emails or trigger emails. We use Klaviyo for email marketing, but it triggers emails on Klaviyo so that if they suspect that a customer is at risk of churning, they'll actually trigger a proactive email and say, "Hey, tired of your subscription and feeling like you have too much product? Go ahead and pause or just log into your account and change your subscription." I think for us, one of the core philosophies I've always stood by when it comes to building a subscription program for your brand is just trying to give as many options and delivering on convenience as much as you can. So, for example, not everyone is going to want water every 30 days. Some customers actually want it every two weeks. Some we have our high value customers order water every seven days. And so making it easy for them to say, "You know what, I'm not drinking that much water anymore, even though I was on a seven day subscription. Weather is a lot colder now. I'm not working out as much. I'm going to go ahead and pause or change my subscription, so it delivers every 60 days instead." And just making sure it's really easy for that customer to do everything on their own through our website is really key at making sure that we retain those customers.

Brian: [00:15:06] That's really interesting. Yeah, I think that's a really, really valuable set of features. I also think it's actually kind of leads to a conversation about brand too and how your brand is perceived. And again, getting back to that relationship management. As you're looking at your customers and the way that they perceive the Hawaii Volcanic brand how have you been able to provide additional messaging or additional points for engagement or other ways for people to share or connect around Hawaii Volcanic as a part of that?

Daniel: [00:15:46] Yeah, 100 percent. You know, I think for our brand, one of our core philosophies is called "Be Pono," which is in Hawaii means do what's right. And one of the key things for our business is that a percentage of our profits go towards some of these Pono programs. And probably the most popular that we're most known for is this device called a Seabin. Sits out in the ocean and it collects and skims garbage, and it collects waste from the oceans. And we use our profits for supporting programs like that. And [00:16:21] it's really important for any brand, I think in this day and age, to be more than just selling a product. Customers have to feel like not only do they love your product, but they have to feel some sort of connection that really reaches them on a personal level, like cleaning the world's oceans or doing more for the environment, maybe supporting a local school, and things of that nature. And so we do a good job of making sure that content is front and center on our website. We also engage with our customers on email marketing, social media as well, where we're constantly making sure that our customers see what we're doing behind just selling water. [00:17:01]

Brian: [00:17:02] That's really cool. And does your subscription platform sort of give you additional opportunities for touch points around some of that story?

Daniel: [00:17:09] Oh yeah, 100 percent. Every time we send out an order confirmation, we use a platform that enables the delivery confirmation as well and on site tracking. So any time we get one of those subscription re-orders, they're going to get one of those emails, which takes them back to our site where we're informing them more about some of the Pono programs that we're actively supporting in that time.

Brian: [00:20:37] It's really cool. I'm thinking about how you initially acquire your customers, and I think in the pre-show you were talking a little bit about that it started as a regional brain and then everyone was like, "Wow, this water's amazing. How do I get this water outside of Hawaii?" And I would imagine still a lot of your customer acquisition comes from people who are actually coming to Hawaii and seeing the brand, experiencing the brand, and then connecting with some of the stories and ways that you're engaged in doing good in the world as a brand. Have you found that in eCommerce and subscription, are you finding that people are maybe experiencing the brand for the first time in person? Is it actually in Hawaii or are you starting to see the brand spread out a little bit further? And I could imagine, if you're on vacation in Hawaii or you're visiting that subscription would make just complete sense coming out of that. Have you found a way to sort of... Again, this is an acquisition thing. Have you found a way to connect with those customers that leads them to a subscription as they engage with the brand in person?

Daniel: [00:21:52] Yeah. So we utilize a number of different influencers that are active in in Hawaii and they speak on Hawaiian culture. For example, one of our ambassadors, Dan Ige, UFC fighter, who recently had a fight from Hawaii. And we utilize influencers like that from Hawaii to really connect with those customers that have a natural attraction to Hawaii or all things Hawaiian in general. But [00:22:24] for us, I think one of the awesome things about eCommerce and for us is a small brand, we're not a Pepsi or Coca-Cola that can get our product in every single store across the country. We just don't have that capability. And so what eCommerce enables us to do is eliminate those barriers of not having those distribution points to where even if we have someone come all the way from New York to Hawaii to buy our water and they want to take that product home with them, they can still jump on our website and get a case delivered to them all the way in New York. [00:22:55]

Brian: [00:22:55] That's amazing. [00:22:56] Yeah. Eddie, [00:22:57] what are you seeing across some of your broader client base, like as far as using subscriptions as an acquisition tool? Are you seeing some strategies employed there to do that?

Daniel: [00:23:10]  [00:23:10]Yeah. So all of our customers or all of our subscribers, most of our subscribers will actually start a subscription from day one and their first order is a subscription. And then we have some customers that want to try the product as well and see whether or not they want to opt into a subscription or bring it home with them at first and see how often they're consuming it. But for us, when it comes to subscriptions, having a really healthy subscription program, understanding what the lifetime value is of a subscriber versus a non subscriber really helps us be able to provide more discounts and incentives to sign that customer up from day one or get them to come on a subscription because we know we're going to be able to keep that customer for an extended period of time. And, you know, I think we're kind of spoiled in the CPG space by offering a subscription because we don't have to focus as much on retargeting our customers to bring them back onto our website to make another purchase. A lot of our subscribers enable us to not have to worry about that as much.

Brian: [00:24:20] I don't mean to put you on the spot, but like, how much are you... Do you have a quantifiable number that you feel like you're able to have an edge over others with acquisition? You're saving money due to the subscription. Therefore, you can invest x more percent into acquisition. It's ok if you don't have anything on the spot?

Daniel: [00:24:45] Yeah, no, that's a great question. So our subscribers typically are 4x more valuable than non-subscribers on average. So what that means for us is as long as we know we can get them on a subscription, we'll be in the green within that period of time or through the life of their subscription.

Brian: [00:25:08] Nice.

Daniel: [00:25:09] You know, I think for us, again as I mentioned, subscriptions are the lifeblood of our business. More than half of our revenue comes from subscriptions today. Reoccurring subscriptions.

Brian: [00:25:20] Wow.

Daniel: [00:25:21] So that really helps us build a solid eCommerce business to really go after those new customers and continue to build on top of that foundation that we have with subscriptions

Brian: [00:25:32] More than half of your eCom revenue or more than half of the total revenue as a business?

Daniel: [00:25:38] More than half of our eCommerce revenue.

Brian: [00:25:39] Ok. I was going to say, "Wow, that would be amazing." Eddie, from the Ordergroove perspective, looking out at your broader set of customers, are you seeing similar use cases and patterns and trends in terms of like how people are considering what a subscription customer is worth and how they're reinvesting that money or using subscriptions as an acquisition tool?

Eddie: [00:26:09] Absolutely. And I think that's when I have the ability to talk to a lot of these brands, and I'll jump into a lot of these sales calls and the calls with our customer success team. But it's really understanding the current state of acquisition cost. Things are skyrocketing. Competition is not slowing down. ROAS is plummeting. So every single customer that you acquire, how do you make sure that they stay on the platform? So like I mentioned, the enrollment is not the difficult part, but we definitely are seeing a lot of people leverage some of our advanced discounting tools and some of the things that we can help them configure within the platform to make sure that they stay on. So if Daniel sees that a subscriber is dropping off, more so on the fourth order, but if they stay till the fifth or sixth order, then they're going to have this massive LTV. We can actually install an enth order retention rate. So you offer, let's say, 30 or 40 percent off before the fourth order because if you get them over this cliff or this threshold then they'll stay on forever. So I think the most successful programs when we talk about subscription first. [00:27:04] As Daniel peaks into this 50, 60, maybe 70 percent of the revenue of their eCommerce revenue coming in from subscriptions, they're pretty much considered subscription first, they're really leveraging all these different strategies, not just auto replenishment, "We'll send it to your door every 30 to 60 days," but it's really how do you understand the customers? They're buying journey, their repurchasing journey, and then leveraging the analytics and data that hopefully Ordergroove is providing you to extend that out and make sure they stay happy and stay on as a subscriber. [00:27:33] So we see this across the board. Everybody is getting incredibly creative. We power other great brands such as Peet's Coffee and Bulletproof Coffee and Love Wellness on Shopify, and the amount of tools that they can leverage and the different strategies that they're implementing is pretty amazing. And you really see the returns on a subscription platform once they get past this four, five, six order type customer journey. So we see a lot of it. I could go into a deep dive about many of the different things that they're doing, but recurring revenue is here to stay. I think COVID definitely pushed it up a couple of years where everyone's now thinking subscriptions and recurring revenue. But yeah, it's fun to watch from this side.

Brian: [00:28:16] Yeah, definitely. COVID changed some of my subscription behavior, for sure. I think actually, I would love to hear a little bit more about some of the strategies. And even beyond beverage, just looking out into some of the other industries that you're engaged in, it would be really interesting to me to hear you dive into some of those deep examples, maybe in some other industries as well, where this modality is being applied.

Eddie: [00:28:43] Yeah, absolutely. So I would say very similar. Like Daniel mentioned, the CPG category is really exciting. You have this natural state of replenishment. So you have a great benefit actually implementing a subscription program. One vertical that we're very strong in is actually coffee. So if you look at the abilities that we provide some of these coffee companies to build out their subscription program, and again, I'll dive into kind of the subscription management side of things because we think that The Customer Portal is probably the most important part to relationship commerce, the way they interact with the brand, the things that they see, the options that they have and the flexibility to program. So for us, we don't have to get too technical, but we treat every single SKU as its own separate subscription within Shopify and Shopify Plus. So let's say you subscribe to a certain coffee, and this month you're feeling like a dark roast, and then after some time you have flavor fatigue and you want to change it to a light roast, and the things you could do without actually having to cancel and resubscribe is really important. On the same token, you could change quantities, you can skip, and you could do different things. So within a subscription program, there are probably dozens and dozens of things that you can do to enable you to extend the lifetime value of these customers. We've been with the Honest Company, I think it's like six or seven years now. And it's an incredible relationship. They're not on Shopify Plus, but the flexibility that we provide them from a customer experience is pretty special. So whatever they want to do from a diapers perspective or a baby wash or something like that, they can do. So the way they can treat different subscriptions, depending on the SKU, depending on the vertical, depending on the product, will be able to make their customers really happy and make sure that they stay as subscribers. So there's dozens of other verticals, but those are probably two ones off the top of my head where we're really far and wide the best in the industry.

Daniel: [00:30:38] I think one that I've been watching for a while, one of my favorite apparel brands is Scotch and Soda. And they actually have this new program. Actually, I don't know if it's new. It might have been around for a while, called Scotch and Select, where every month you get to pick three articles of clothing shipped to your door, and then you can decide to keep one of them or just return all three if you want. But it's really exciting to see how apparel brands who have always been at the forefront of eCommerce start utilizing something that CPG companies have been using for so long, which is subscriptions and trying to build that reoccurring revenue model as well. So it's fun to see apparel brands kind of experiment and figure out whether or not subscriptions is going to be something that is long term for them as they continue to grow that eCommerce business.

Eddie: [00:31:26] And that's what we're seeing a ton of, too. Sorry, Brian, to cut you off, but recurring revenue happens in very different ways, right? And one thing with these fashion apparel brands that we're seeing now is digital access. So we know about all of the drops and the hypebeast stuff that goes on, but just having digital access to a certain amount of inventory or first in line to whatever is also a great strategy that these fashion apparel companies are rolling in. So we're seeing a lot of that too.

Brian: [00:31:51] That's really cool. Yeah. Tell me more about this. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you're seeing this being used. In fact, that's going to lead me into my next question, which is how do you see subscriptions evolving over the next couple of years and playing out in, well, Daniel, for you with Hawaii Volcanic? And then I would love to hear from you, Eddie, about the broader subscription use cases as we kind of move forward. So yeah, maybe start with you, Eddie, just because I think it's super interesting where you're headed there.

Eddie: [00:32:26] Yeah, so I mentioned this before, and [00:32:29] our CEO has been talking about it for over a decade now, but relationship commerce is going to be like transactional commerce is today. It's going to be pretty much everywhere. And the whole idea of a solution platform or relationship commerce platform having kind of ingesting payment tokens means what can we do with card not present type of transactions? So what we see today is kind of this auto replenishment subscription by customer, and you can interact with a subscription management interface on the browser or through mobile. But what our CEO always talks about is... PetSmart is one of our biggest customers. And imagine just one day driving down the road and you get a notification saying, "Hey, your dog is going to be running out of dog food and X amount of days, you're two miles away from the nearest PetSmart. We can have the order ready. Just press, OK." So these are the types of interactions that we see happening in the very, very near future, especially again, because COVID accelerated everything technology wise and curbside pickup wise. So for us right now, it looks like subscriptions, but when we talk about relationship commerce, it's integration points at every single buying behavior. [00:33:29] Think about the card not present transactions and how do we move the friction of you mentally saying, I need to go buy something compared to the physical thing where actually have to drive there, take my time, use the gas, jump on a subway and buy it. So that's kind of the future, whether it's voice, whether it's through a mobile app, whether it's to a proprietary app, that's the direction we're going in.

Brian: [00:33:48] Wow. Daniel, how about specifically at Hawaii Volcanic?

Daniel: [00:33:52] Yeah, I think for us, as we continue to build our SKU list and introduce new flavors or new variations of water like our sparkling product, we see that our subscribers, our current subscribers are the first customers that want to try that something new product. And as Eddie mentioned, having that card on file and being able to do that card not present type of transaction where you can easily just give the customer the opportunity to say, "Yeah, send me a case of that," or "I'd love to add that to my next subscription order when it comes due," is a huge value add for us, and it really helps us build actually extended value for our customer because we're giving them a lot of times first access or the easiest way to try that new product first before anyone else. I think for us too, when we look at relationship commerce in general, you know, it can extend beyond just water. We have different items coming underway like swag, shirts, hats, things like that. It'll be really easy for our subscribers to add that to their cart on their next subscription reorder if they wanted at hat or something like that.

Brian: [00:35:06] Oh, I love that. Yeah, adding value to their subscription just by pushing things to them and giving them opportunity to opt into things as a part of their subscription or just adding value through the subscription. Those are super, super interesting ways to keep customers engaged and provide that sort of extra thing for them that keeps them engaged in what you're doing and sort of delights them as a customer instead of just set and forget, it's like more like set and enjoy. {laughter} You can have a lot of fun with it. Also, Eddie, you mentioned something that caught my ears. It's something I've been talking about for a while, which is you said, "Oh hey, your pet might run out of food. Your pet is going to run out of food shortly. Do you want to just add this to your next subscription," or whatever it is with that card not present type transaction, but the thing that caught my ear was sort of the personal inventory side of things as well. I think there's probably a lot of opportunity coming up here for customers to have a little bit more control and understanding of what they own and when they're going to run out of it. And I'm looking forward to when you don't even have to think about a reorder. It's just like, it's there always when you need it. And I think there's obviously something that you can control, but super exciting. Subscription space has a lot to come. That's what I'm taking away from this. It's a great tool for the here and now. And if you're investing in it as a brand or retailer now you're going to reap the benefits of what's coming. So don't get behind. Get out there. Be ready to use subscription business to engage your customers better, to be able to invest more in acquisition, actually use subscription as an acquisition tool, and also as an innovation tool that can support your brand and grow your customers' impression of what it is that you're doing for them. That's a lot. That's a lot. That's amazing. Thank you both, Daniel and Eddie, for being on the show today. I had a great time. Where can people find you if they want to go check you out?

Daniel: [00:37:32] Just We'll be there.

Brian: [00:37:35] Nice.

Eddie: [00:37:36] Same thing for me. A little bit loud on LinkedIn, so you can look me up at Eddie Hsieh at Ordergroove and Jump on that page. Find out what our company is about and some of the merchants that we support and how we set ourselves apart. So really excited to be here.

Brian: [00:37:50] Awesome. Well, thank you for for joining us and thank you, Ordergroove, for being an incredible sponsor. We love working with you. And thank you listeners for tuning in today. We love that you're engaged. We would love to hear more from you. Feel free to reach out at or Or go head on over to your podcast platform of choice and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll catch you next week.

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