Season 4 Episode 3
December 16, 2020

[Step by Step] What Tools Can Help Me to Tell My Brand Story?

In episode 3 of Step by Step Season 4, James Le Compte tells us a story of conservation and preservation, and how they have created a luxury brand around an otherwise commonplace confection — chocolate. We dive deep into the psychology of brand storytelling, how you can tell those stories in every channel, and how you can bring tools along to inspire the customer in their purchase journey.

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this episode sponsored by

James Le Compte sits down with us today to talk about the story of To'ak Chocolates, a luxury chocolate brand based in Ecuador. The story is beautiful, and unlike anything we've heard. We'll also discuss the key to effectively communicating your brand and product differentiation, in every channel.

We have a big challenge, like a lot of small businesses do, but we try and break it down and do one thing well. And that applies to our digital marketing efforts as well. I think we started in a gradual effort and sort of scaffolded up our strategy. And that's worked well for us as well.

Key Takeaways

-Your story is the beginning of your reason for being as a brand. Tell it in every channel, and craft it specifically for that channel.
- Leverage high-retention channels (SMS/email)
- Create new and interesting products and vary your creative per-channel, especially if you have a product that is difficult to sense via digital (aka chocolate)
- More creative is better than less creative - everything must be fresh all the time. Keep shaping the product offering, alter the messaging and creative to keep things fresh.
- How to build UGC and Social Proof on a budget; be active in organic channels
- Getting earned media without spending a ton on PR is easiest when you have a truly differentiated product and story
- Partnerships and collaborations help amplify your brand

Notable Quotes

We really want to make sure that everything we do and everything that the customer sees or feels gives them the sense that we really care, that we don't only care about them, but we also care about the environment where we're sourcing the raw materials from. We care about the people that we work with. It's a product that's produced with a lot of care and attention and love ultimately.


Phillip: [00:00:17.28] Hello and welcome to Step by Step, a podcast by Future Commerce, presented by Omnisend. This is Season Four of Step by Step. And we are asking the question, how can a DTC brand compete with established brands? It's my question. It's your question. And we all know it's the one that needs answering because it is tougher than ever to attract an online shopper. You spend and you spend and you spend. You got to keep them coming back for more. And every time you attract a new customer, it feels like you're adding more work to your plate. Well, you can actually compete. You can grow and do more with less with marketing automation. And that's what we're sitting down to speak with James Le Compte about here today. James is going to tell us the amazing story of To'ak Chocolate and how a story of conservation helped rescue a variety of cacao thought to be lost for generations, how he rescued it from extinction, and how his company, how To'ak, is bringing this experience of luxury chocolate to the world. It's incredible. Is this podcast for you? You're probably asking, what can I learn from this? Well, if you're an independent retailer, if you're an eCommerce startup, if you're a direct to consumer business, even if you're a lifestyle eCommerce business who's bootstrapped and has no exit intent whatsoever, then this is for you. This is a four part series. And if you're just jumping in midway through, might I suggest you go back and listen to the beginning right the way through? It's the best way to experience Step by Step. In this series we are going to teach you through the voice of founders of small and medium sized eCommerce startups, how you can create and craft the ultimate multichannel customer journey, how you can leverage automation and you can take your marketing to the next level. And we're going to get you there. We're going to take you from zero to hero, Step by Step. Let's join James Le Compte as he tells us the story of conservation and how To'ak is raising the bar, the experience of chocolate, for consumers all over the world Step by Step.

Phillip: [00:02:27.07] Today, we are here with James Le Compte of To'ak Chocolate. He is the CEO over there, but if our pre show shows me he is the warmest person in chocolate that you'll ever meet. Welcome to the show, Mr. James Le Compte.

James: [00:02:42.46] Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Phillip: [00:02:44.98] Glad to have you. I was making sort of a warm joke as a lead in because you have such an interesting product and sort of the evolution of the product, such an incredible story of conservation at To'ak Chocolate. For those who aren't aware of the brand and don't know the story behind it, can you just tell us a little bit about what is To'ak Chocolate?

James: [00:03:09.01] Sure. I'd love to. To'ak Chocolate is a bean to bar chocolate brand based in Ecuador. We do everything from harvesting the cacao, producing the chocolate, packaging and exporting the finished product in Ecuador. So it's a product that's made at origin. Really, I guess our story starts about 12 years ago when one of our Co-Founders, Jerry Toth, who's originally from Chicago. He moved to Ecuador and started a rainforest conservation program with a number of other friends. But it continues to operate today as Third Millennium Alliance, and protects about seventeen hundred acres of really important rainforest in coastal Ecuador. And it was on that conservation area that Jerry first came across the cacao tree, which for most of us I think listening to this podcast... I grew up in Australia. And Jerry and for most of us chocolate was this sweet candy that we enjoyed as kids, and I don't think any of us as kids really connected that with a tree that's got an incredible history and incredible attributes, both from health and wellbeing and cultural significance in Ecuador and that part of the world. Jerry, coming across these abandoned cacao plantations, he just became quite fascinated with the history. And Ecuador plays a really significant role in the world of cacao and chocolate. And, you know, again, it's probably something that not many of us know, but Ecuador is actually considered the birthplace of cacao.

Phillip: [00:04:40.69] Oh wow.

James: [00:04:40.93] So there was a study conducted about 10 years ago and recently published which basically identified the oldest evidence of any domestication on domestic use of cacao, some five thousand three hundred years ago and what's now southern Ecuador. So it's really a tree or a plant that's been used for generations and thousands of years in this part of the world. It's also something that more recently in Ecuador has had a significant history. Around the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds Ecuador was the world's largest exporter of cacao. And so modern Ecuador was really going through this boom time at the turn of the century. People call it the era of the golden bean, and modern Ecuador like the central bank and a lot of the infrastructure was built on this cacao boom. But unfortunately, that boom came to a pretty quick bust when a fungal disease came to Ecuador.It's called Witch's Brew. It's a bit like the disease that decimated the cognac vines in France and had a really devastating effect on the industry. And at that time, when Ecuador was so dominant, there was a very special variety of cacao called Nacional. And this variety was famed in Europe with all of the top chocolatiers and chocolate makers at the time. So this variety, because it had a very floral aroma and complex flavor at the time when this disease hit Ecuador, Nacional was the dominant variety of cacao, pretty much the exclusive variety in Ecuador. And so when we started to look into starting a chocolate company, we were fascinated by this legend of ancient Nacional cacao, which we were told at the turn of the most recent century had basically become extinct. So after the disease hit Ecuador around 1916, it decimated a lot of the plantations. Farmers had to try and recover and the economy in general had to recover. And so the government and the industry brought in and introduced varieties and they started producing hybrids that were more pest resistant. And ultimately this very special variety sort of fell out of favor with farmers. And, you know, at the turn of the last century, people believed that in its purest form it was extinct. And so just to sort of close the story of how To'ak started through Jerry's conservation work, we were introduced to one of our business partners today. His name's Silvio and he's a fourth generation Ecuadorian cacao farmer. And he took us to a valley called Piedra de Plata, which translates to Silverstone in a remote part of coastal Ecuador in the province of Manabí. Manabí for cacao growing is a bit like Bordeaux for wine. It's a really storied region of Ecuador. We were taken there and we met a group of 13 smallholder farmers and Silvio said that when he was a child, his grandmother, who was also a cacao farmer, used to take them there on special outings because she said this is where we can find the best cacao in Ecuador. And in conversation with these cacao farmers, we learned that a number of the trees on their properties where we're really quite old. They were able to point out trees that were planted by their grandparents and great grandparents. And these are very small farms that have somewhere between three to four acres of mixed crops. They're not just cacao, but other tropical fruits as well, grown without any irrigation and all completely organic before the concept was really sort of popularized. We sort of connected the dots and said that if these trees were planted, you know, one or two generations ago, then some of them had to have been planted before the disease arrived in Ecuador. And there's a good chance that they could be this genetically pure Nacional. We asked to take some samples. We sent them to the USDA laboratories in the States, and it turned out from forty six samples that nine of them were one hundred percent pure Nacional genetics.

Phillip: [00:08:40.77] Wow.

James: [00:08:40.86] And so for us, that was kind of like little Indiana Jones moment where we'd discovered this supposedly extinct ancient variety of cacao with these farmers. So that's sort of where it all began. And then I could talk a little bit about how we converted that, if you'd like, into a luxury.

Phillip: [00:09:00.96] Oh please.

Brian: [00:09:02.46] Yes. Keep going.

Phillip: [00:09:03.24] Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. But I guess the natural question is how do you fit that story to your customers on a package? Because it's incredible. Truly incredible. And when you talk about product differentiation, there's very few products in the world that I can think of that can say it was rescued from the brink of extinction to be something that could actually be enjoyed by people the world over. Yeah, but please.

James: [00:09:36.48] Yeah, I think that was really one of the big challenges we had in the beginning was, well, first of all, we were working with such a rare raw material. And so when thinking about, well, how could we do something that was true to this incredible raw material. How could we do something that allowed us to share it in an authentic way? We spent a lot of time studying the history of cacao cultivation in Ecuador and the cultural significance. And we really tried to weave a lot of that into how we communicate and how we present and share the brand. But I guess to answer your question, how do we share all of that in a product. It is difficult. We decided in the beginning to, I guess, take a little bit of a radical approach and really try and follow a true luxury branding playbook. And so we looked particularly to examples in fine wine and whiskey. And a lot of the successful brands in that space, I think they've been able to create somewhat of a legend around around their brand. And they've leveraged, obviously, storytelling, very elaborate and beautiful packaging is important because I think with a lot of us are, I guess, activated visually to begin with. And so once we've caught someone's attention with something that really matches, if you like, the I guess what I'm trying to say here? Sorry, I've lost my train of thought there.

Phillip: [00:11:35.28] Yeah, it's communicating the value of something or the like, the heightened perception of luxury.

James: [00:11:41.13] Exactly right. [00:11:41.68] To be able to communicate the true value of something in many different sort of aspects visually through the sense of touch and taste and smell... Those are all important touch points for us. And when we first launch our first round of chocolate bars, we actually include a beautiful presentation box that then houses a handcrafted wooden box, which looks a little bit like a cigar box. Inside that you would find a tasting utensil to create a ritual or an experience out of buying the chocolate. And then we have a 60 page color book that comes inside the lid of the wooden box. And that really allows us to take a deep dive into the history of cacao in Ecuador, how we produce the chocolate, why it's such a significant variety, and what we're doing to preserve it for future generations. And [00:12:29.79] so people that are looking for something really unique and perhaps luxurious, they want to take the time to sit down and to experience it and sort of immerse themselves in it.

Brian: [00:12:40.08] I'm looking at the product right now. It's so beautiful. It's just absolutely gorgeous. You can see it on the site. You know, I'm looking at your art serious right now. And maybe that's why it's just absolutely blowing my mind. But the box is so beautifully illustrated and the illustrations and everything about it screams premium to me, which I think to your point is actually important here. Because what you have is precious, and so to take this to market in any form other than luxury, I feel like would sort of be a disservice to it, to the product.

James: [00:12:40.08] Yes. I agree.

Brian: [00:13:26.83] I find this just incredible. So you would talk a little about your strategy, you're kind of your go to market strategy and I would imagine that there's more to that story as well. You're doing business in Ecuador now. You're vertically integrated. You're managing the whole production cycle. You're managing everything from harvesting through production and creation to marketing to selling to distribution. That's all you. Is that correct?

James: [00:13:59.89] Yeah. That's right. And so I think that's an important point of differentiation for us within the chocolate industry. But it's also a really crucial part of building a luxury brand, if you like, is having complete vertical integration and control over the entire supply chain or value chain so that we can really ensure that we're reaching the level of quality at every single step of the process that we would expect. And so, yes, there are days, for example, when we're down at the Cacao Collection Center, we're arm deep in in cacao beans, which have a fantastic aroma before they eventually turn into chocolate. They're coated in a white gooey fruit, which we've actually... Well, one of the things we love about working with cacao is there's so many things you can do with it. And so we actually spun an idea off into a separate brand to make a cacao fruit soda. But that's another story. But there are some days when we're down at the farm working with the farmers and then we'll head back to Quito on the very next day. We're on a call with it might be, for example, we work with Omnisend on our marketing automation. And so we have that sort of, I guess, breadth of exposure to the entire value chain, because we're not only harvesting the cacao and fermenting and drying it, then roasting it and converting it into a cacao, but we're also really thinking deeply about how consumers can enjoy a product that's so unique and special and how that enjoyment starts with visiting our website, placing an order, receiving the package in the post, unboxing and the post purchase support. And yeah. So we do all of that in-house. We're a small team. And so it's always about leveraging the limited resources that we have and ensuring that everything we do matches that [00:16:10.39]. We really want to make sure that everything we do and everything that the customer sees or feels gives them the sense that we really care, that we don't only care about them, but we also care about the environment where we're sourcing the raw materials from. We care about the people that we work with. It's a product that's produced with a lot of care and attention and love ultimately. [00:16:36.10]

Phillip: [00:17:53.73] So much nuance there around doing more with less, and there's the other end of the equation of if you look at the consumer idea of what chocolate is, it's a devalued commodity that you can just gorge yourself on and spend no thought or time into where it comes from or how you came to get it or what the value chain is of how it came to be available to you to purchase. Whereas you're at the complete other end of the spectrum of every part of the experience is very important that folks understand the thought and the intention that went into every piece from the package, the product that goes in the package, but also in the way that you experience it. I've never bought anything ever, Brian, that comes with a tasting utensil.

Brian: [00:18:49.44] No.

Phillip: [00:18:49.95] Not ever. So I feel like I'm the target. I'm probably your target consumer. Talk more about the doing more with less. What is the idea of... Does that permeate to other areas of the way you operate the business? Is that a mindset that you try to apply to everything? You said you have a small team.

James: [00:19:13.20] Yeah, I think it definitely is. And you really, I guess, hit the nail on the head when you gave that example of how most of us perceive chocolate as this cheap commodity. And so that's one of the biggest challenges we have in the business is to, I guess, help people step back for a second and perceive this incredible product as something that can be very valuable and to really connect with the incredible history that it has. It was actually, for many of the ancient cultures in Latin America, whether it was the Incas or the Mayans, it was considered more valuable than gold. And the Latin name for cacao is theobroma cacao, which translates literally to food of the gods. And so really part of our mission, our ultimate goal, is to elevate dark chocolate onto the same level as fine wine or whiskey. And so we have, if you like, a big challenge or a big task because of the way most of us have perceived chocolate. And so I think in that sense, it is important to really be focused and to do something well before you try and tackle everything or do everything. And so we do take that, I think, mindset across all the different areas of the business. It's taken us quite a while to expand our product portfolio because we wanted to really perfect the initial products before we expanded to something that was a little more, if you like, our origin bars, for example, the ones that come in the beautiful wooden box. Those we found have been really well suited for gifting for special occasions. Even a lot of people would tell us that they had it as an item on their bucket list, for example. But it's challenging to build a sustainable business on that basis. And so once we sort of felt that we had not obviously perfected that product, but we'd got it to a point where we were happy with it, then we were able to sort of start looking at other products. We had a lot of customers that would tell us they received a box of To'ak Chocolate as a gift, and they were blown away and they wanted to enjoy it on a more frequent basis, but didn't need, for example, every time the elaborate packaging. And so that's when we got our line of Signature bars, which is the same amazing quality of chocolate that comes in a simpler packaging. And for example, instead of a 60 page color book, it comes with a small insert that gives you the steps to tasting and pairing chocolate with whiskey or with wine or cheese, for example. And now we're in the process of working on a new line of products, which we hope to launch in early 2021, which will add I guess a little bit of fun to our product portfolio, which is going to be a range of flavored bars that will be a little bit more affordable. And with those bars, we're actually going from with the Origin bars, the top of our range, our flagship products, where we have a 60 page color book. We then went to the Signature bars where we have this concise little insert that's still very informative and enjoyable to read. And now with this new line of products we're planning to utilize digital technology with QR codes, traceability and really rich storytelling through mobile devices. And so we do have to... I guess [00:23:06.65] we have a big challenge, like a lot of small businesses do, but we try and break it down and do one thing well. And that applies to our digital marketing efforts as well. I think we started in a gradual effort and sort of scaffolded up our strategy. And that's worked well for us as well. [00:23:27.93]

Brian: [00:23:28.34] Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. So as far as digital marketing goes, you mentioned Omnisend already, but you know what channels are you in right now? You've got your website. Is that the main way or the only way that you're going to market? Are there other channels that you're selling through and how did you determine which channels you would be in? I think you've described it very well. Crawl, walk, run. And you're picking high value channels to start. Talk to us a little bit about how you made those decisions.

James: [00:24:05.39] Yeah. So when we started and because we had such a scarce raw material, and we wanted to pursue this luxury branding approach, we really knew that online was the only way we could start the business. Because if you think about a traditional luxury brand, they usually have a beautiful boutique or several of them. And it's something that when you walk in you really get to feel the brand and experience it. And that's obviously an expensive endeavor. And so thankfully, we were able to start back in 2015 with an online business model. And that's worked well for us. We recently, with the COVID pandemic, we had to take another look at digital marketing efforts and really reinvigorate them because we had started to build out our traditional distribution through working with a distributor in the US and Europe and focusing on trying to build out some of our distribution channels through retail stores, physical retail stores. But with the pandemic that obviously had to change quite quickly. And so we really took a step back and looked at, I guess, the basics of our digital marketing strategy. And so how could we drive traffic, more traffic, to our website? How could we look at improving our conversion rate? And then how could we also improve that sort of repeat purchase or retention rate? And so we really broke it down, I guess, to those three simple factors are building the digital marketing strategy. We started to work on landing pages. I think that was a really important move for us. So we've spent a lot of time building what I think is a nice looking website. And it's functional from an eCommerce perspective, but it was very, I guess, a one size fits all approach. And so what we liked about the using landing pages is we could start to build very specific pages that help people get a quick introduction to To'ak if it's the first time they've seen it in their Instagram feed or Facebook feed, for example. And so we've started selling through specific landing pages that we built. We also have been using now Facebook and Instagram ads, which has been really, you know, some great results there as well. And then we started to build on that with our marketing automation, which I think it sounded at first like I guess like a complex and huge undertaking when you sort of think about automating anything. But there're so many great options out there now. And for small business I can't really think of anything better when it comes to where to invest your marketing dollars, because once you invest the time and effort up front to build out some really beautiful content, in terms of the written words and the imagery that you're going to be putting into your automations [00:27:38.33]... In our case, we focused a lot on email automation. Once you set that up, then it starts to work for you in the background 24/7. And obviously it needs nurturing and monitoring, but it's like having an extra couple of team members without the overhead. [00:27:57.23] So that's been really great.

Phillip: [00:28:01.46] It's interesting, it reminds me of a book I'm reading recently called the The Almanac of Naval Ravikant, written by Eric Jorgenson. And Naval, of course, prolific Silicon Valley personality and venture capitalist. But having this redefinition of what wealth truly is, and to him, wealth is not just the intersection of having assets that earn for you in your spare time, but the ability to do what you want and to control your own fate and to rest when you feel like it and work when you feel like it. It sounds to me that To'ak Chocolate is truly a wealthy brand in that you have built for yourself something that not only provides a return on your investment in your spare time through various marketing channels, investments there, but also a brand that continues to build its own equity with your customer. That I think it's truly, it's not commoditized. It's truly differentiated in the sense that every interaction sews new opportunity for you to build a lifetime relationship with the customer. Any thoughts about how you're approaching that from a luxury perspective? And is there a temptation to widen the net a little bit in a way that might actually devalue what you've been able to achieve?

James: [00:29:41.57] Yeah, it's a great question, and I think we are on that journey and there certainly are temptations all the time. And fortunately, that's I guess what business partners are there for. So we create a healthy tension in business between, you know, ensuring that we're able to build a sustainable business and make ends meet and invest in the things that we feel are important. For example, the conservation work or product development. We have a lot of fantastic innovation that we do around aging chocolate, which we could talk about. But there are always temptations to, like you said, sort of broaden the net. But we yeah, we have a great team and we always, I think, come back to what our values are as a group of individuals and what it is that we'd like to leave behind with To'ak. And then that becomes the principle that we take the decisions with. I mean, we could bring out products that were much more competitive, for example, with other mainstream chocolate brands. But we very quickly, I think, find that we're sort of stepping onto the hamster wheel and we're then on that road like, you know, continually decreasing margins. And, yeah, it's sort of a slippery slope, whereas it by no means has it been easy. I think, in fact  [00:31:22.61]the decision that we took to start To'ak as a luxury brand and to make some bold statements in the industry, I think have actually been extremely difficult for us to navigate. We didn't have a point of reference, really, in the industry to say if we followed this path and chances are we could turn the business into a success. We're really sort of charting our own way. But I think each of us involved really enjoy that sort of adventurous side of the business. And, yeah, it does allow us to have more control over how we spend our time and where we put our effort. And I think as long as you go into that sort of journey in an authentic way, then that's the ideal sort of scenario. [00:32:16.48]

Phillip: [00:32:20.18] Yeah, there are certainly some brands that come to mind, not to make you comment on others in the marketplace, but there are certain brands that come to mind that also have brick and mortar sort of retail presence. They may be a version, or someone's version of luxury, but maybe not true luxury. There's a word we've been using for that... Premium Mediocre. I sense that given enough time, there are undisciplined brands that might find themselves heading straight down that route as well in order to continue to feed the growth machine. Do you sense that, are you artificially or sort of like superficially limited to do that based on the nature of your supply? Is that also part of the equation as sort of the antidote to this fast growth or this mass consumerization of your otherwise different product?

James: [00:33:21.95] Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely face the reality of a limited supply. On the other hand, we do feel it's important to expand on what we've started. We have particular values and perspective around the cacao industry. And it's an industry that hasn't changed for quite a while and it's really stacked against the interests of the farmer. And so we'd love to see more brands, whether it's in cacao or other industries doing, I guess, similar or taking similar approaches that we take. I mean, for example, [00:34:05.42] the farmers that we work with, we pay them between three to eight times the market price for the cacao that we purchase at the farm. We invest a lot of time and effort at the farm level around working with them on sustainable agricultural practices. We've been able to start a genetic bank project with a local NGO and a local university in Ecuador where we're planting cuttings from these nine mother trees that we spoke about earlier. And we're really trying to bring a lot of awareness and education to consumers about the importance of biodiversity, [00:34:52.00] for example. I mean, there's so many examples. It's not just cacao, but there's so many industries where we've moved to this mass produced commoditized sort of model where we put all of our eggs in one basket, whether it's like with bananas, there's the Cavendish or in variety. Or and cacao there's this variety called CCN 51, which is not a very sexy name, but that's a variety now that most farmers are producing because they don't get paid on price. It's all about volume. And so we're losing so much diversity and even cultural heritage and all sorts of things when we just sort of all get on this superhighway to commoditization of mass production. And so obviously what we're doing is just a drop in the ocean, but we feel like if we can show others that it is possible to make a living this way and to build a business, then that would be a great outcome as well.

Phillip: [00:36:06.56] There's something to be said about the sort of continual reeducation of the customer and taking the story to another level deeper. Rarely do you hear, and I'm sorry to keep gushing over the notoriety of the thing that you have built and achieved, but very rare do you hear about the the investment to a genetic bank of a particular... Like that just doesn't happen in our neck of the woods. Usually people are touting some sort of breakthrough around a leg that can be attached to a piece of wood and call it furniture. Brian, you've been exceptionally quiet taking it all in.

Brian: [00:36:55.25] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:36:56.00] I'd love to... I know you must be gushing over there.

Brian: [00:36:58.55] I am. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:36:59.57] What are some final thoughts?

Brian: [00:37:01.31] I just love how you're being... You're building an identity as a business that is true to so many things. It's true to your customers. It's true to the your employees. It's true to the products that you've so crafted and discovered this. These are all things to me that are marks of the type of business that is going to be able to withstand something like a COVID. And then you're taking those things and you're being very careful about what channels you release them through. And you're doing more with less. I just I love the story. I think what you're doing is absolutely incredible. And I'm looking forward to tasting your chocolate because that's something that I absolutely have to do now. Now it's on my bucket list.

James: [00:37:56.96] Yeah. We have to organize that for sure.

Phillip: [00:37:58.85] If others are going to taste the chocolate, where can they find it?

James: [00:38:02.33] The best place to find it is on our website, so it's And we have fast and free delivery through the US and worldwide, and we ship all year. So, yeah, it's really pretty straightforward.

Phillip: [00:38:22.52] That's so cool. Thank you so much for joining us on the show, and thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much, James, for joining us on Step by Step. You know, right before James sat down for that interview, he spent over two weeks in quarantine with his family in a very small hotel room in Australia. So, James, wow, thank you for coming out of quarantine and then sitting down to tell us your story on a podcast. I couldn't be any more thrilled that you would spend that time with us and then send us some amazing chocolate. I can recommend this chocolate very highly. Go to And if you'll go to their Signature Harvest Rain Harvest, 2018. Highly recommended. So thank you to James for joining us and thank you for listening. We have just one episode left of Step by Step in this fourth season, and it's with Kaylin Marcotte, who is the Founder of Jiggy Puzzles. If you never thought that puzzles could be high art, think again. Kaylin is going to give us an education on what you can do with mindfulness and beautifully designed products, and how you can flip the script on something that seems so commonplace or mundane or consumable as a jigsaw puzzle. It blew my mind. Incredible. Also, thank you so much to Omnisend for sponsoring this season of Step by Step. I want you to do more with less in your eCommerce business. You can do that by visiting Omnisend and getting your marketing automation and all of your channel automation completely squared away. Tell them Phillip sent you from Future Commerce when you do. Go to and get your automation journey underway. All right. Well, that does it. We have one more episode left. I can't wait for you to hear it with Kaylin Marcotte, the Founder of Jiggy Puzzles. Stay tuned, and we'll see you in another episode of Step by Step.

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