The 2030 Commerce Leader is a Cross-Functional Orchestrator

[00:00:38] Phillip: Welcome back to Future Commerce. This is the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. And today, I'm really excited. We are going to the future. Well, we are always going to the future. But today, we have a very special guest. She is the Executive Director of the Digital Shelf Institute and Co-Host of Unpacking the Digital Shelf Podcast. She has ten years of experience in digital commerce and design. And, Lauren, a longtime friend of the Future Commerce Podcast, sought-after commerce strategist for hundreds of global omnichannel brands, including Johnson & Johnson, where she spent many, many years launching new digital and successful strategies for its consumer in North America business. These days at DSI, she's connecting brands, retailers, tech partners, and hundreds of global brands that you know and love to develop that comprehensive commerce strategy. And today, we're gonna talk a little bit about a new report that DSI has put out called "Reinventing the Organization for Omnichannel Success." Welcome to the show, Lauren Livak Gilbert.

[00:02:38] Lauren: Thanks so much, Phillip. I'm so glad we're finally doing this. Oh my goodness.

[00:02:41] Phillip: It took from 2018 to now to finally make it happen.

[00:02:45] Lauren: We made it, though. That's what matters.

[00:02:47] Phillip: It's the thought that counts, I think. You do have a podcast of your own.

[00:02:52] Lauren: Yes.

[00:02:53] Phillip: We're gonna be talking a little bit about this report on two podcasts. We're gonna have part of the conversation here, we're gonna have part of the conversation over on your podcast. Give us a little bit about your show and where we can find it so that if you wanna get part two, you know where to queue it up.

[00:03:07] Lauren: Sure. Yeah. Well, super excited for the crossover pod. So Unpacking the Digital Shelf, you can go to digitalshelfinstitute.org and click on podcast or find it on Spotify and Apple. And, similar to what you do on your side, we talk to brands and retailers and really help them figure out how they can work through the craziness that is our industry. And, what are the best practices or the frameworks? What is coming next? So, I can't wait to have you listen to our show, too.

[00:03:34] Phillip: That's great. And we are talking about what comes next today because this report, I think, really captures in-depth what is, this... Well, not just the state of omnichannel, because, I think that that is captured in part of this report, like, where are we today, but where are we going? Because, you know, the buzzword of omnichannel, I think, is a little fraught at the moment, especially given where AI is and sort of the state of agentic. How did this report come to be? Where did it come from? What's your role in it? And where is Digital Shelf Institute in creating content like this?

[00:04:13] Lauren: Yeah. So I feel like this report has been ready to be written for many years because this is a really complicated topic. Right? Org structure is hard, especially for large organizations. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of change. And, you know, I just kept getting asked the question. So I felt like it needed to really have something meaty, and have some really great research to dive into it. So, I did a ton of interviews. We surveyed a ton of brands and retailers. And I really wanted to get outside of just ecommerce. I spoke to people in procurement, legal, finance, supply chain, and R&D, because omnichannel is not just on the digital side. I really wanted to make this a broader approach. And that's why I'm super excited about it, because it has so many different elements of what omnichannel really needs.

[00:05:04] Phillip: Well, I thought omnichannel was just relegated to the OMS solution, from that one white paper I downloaded that one time from some vendor. {laughter}

[00:05:14] Lauren: {laughter}

[00:05:14] Phillip: I think we're going to dive into a number of things, like the role of AI and creativity, reinventing the organization... Some things that I felt like I was personally attacked around like the aged center of excellence and the model of centers of excellence. And I'm like, "Oh, org models were a thing we used to talk about in omnichannel." Who's this report for? I think that is the first thing I think I should be asking. Who should go get this and download it right now?

[00:05:43] Lauren: Well, definitely for brands of really any size. And I think it spans, also, the leadership as well as the people doing the work, because a lot of these changes need to come from the leadership. Especially when we're talking about reinventing how you're working and changing functions, operations, recruitment...like, fundamental things about the business. But also, I think it's really important for the people doing the work in these functions to understand how they should be thinking differently. So, anyone on the brand side who focuses on any point of the customer journey, this is a report for you.

[00:06:16] Phillip: To set the table real quick, how much of this report is sort of like based on first party data that DSI went out to get? And, how much of that... You said you did a number of interviews, and you went and spoke to a number of people. Quant, qual, third-party sources... Give me a little bit of a breakdown.

[00:06:39] Lauren: Sure. Yeah. I interviewed 33 digital leaders across many different functions, like I mentioned, and then we surveyed almost 100 people from a quantitative perspective as well. So it's based on conversations, data... There are quotes from brands, there are actual org structures from brands. So it's coming straight from the mouth of the people doing the work. And then taking that, I distill it down into themes of what are, really, the kind of key tenets. Because when it comes to org structure, I can't say, "Hey, [brand], this is what it should be on a very pretty piece of paper with all these colored boxes."

[00:07:13] Phillip: Of course.

[00:07:13] Lauren: Instead, I said, "Hey, here are the key tenants you need to think about and how you need to change your mindset."

[00:07:19] Phillip: So here's what I was thinking. How we are gonna differentiate the conversation across the two podcasts is, let's focus on the future here. It's sort of baked into the name. So let's pretend we're in 2030.

[00:07:34] Lauren: Ooh, I like it.

[00:07:34] Phillip: Let's sort of zip forward to the future. And it's not really, I mean, I'd like to feel like that's a long way away. That's like four years. {laughter}

[00:07:41] Lauren: It's like tomorrow. {laughter}

[00:07:42] Phillip: It's really not that far away. But at the speed and pace at which things are changing, that feels like we have some tectonic shifts that are about to happen. I think about the massive adoption of AI tooling in organizations that have already happened in the last three years. ChatGPT was November 2022. Look at what's happened in just less than three years in people's personal lives. Never mind what's happening in the enterprise and in mid-market businesses. Huge shifts, right? So just thinking a few years out, let's kind of put that lens on it. And then over on your side of the house, let's think about how we put some of that into practice to kind of get to 2030.

[00:08:29] Lauren: 2030, here we come.

[00:08:30] Phillip: Okay. So starting in 2030, we're looking at the the state of the org and the role of creativity, AI agents, content creation, research, legal. I mean, how does AI shape the culture of creativity and innovation within a commerce organization? Maybe you could break it down as org size, or maybe team shape. How does that start to look and play out?

[00:08:53] Lauren: Yeah, so I think I'll paint a picture, right? And as I was doing this research, some of this is happening today in a lot of orgs and different pieces, and I'm kind of pulling it together to what it could look like. So let's say you're a brand manager, you're in 2030, you put up your computer and you're like, "Okay, I'm going to check my competitive agent that was trolling the web last night to see if any of my competitors were doing anything, or if my search ring changed or anything in my category is different." And then maybe I have a new product launch that's coming out. And so I have a briefing agent write up the brief for all of the creative that I need to get created on all of the different channels that I'm selling on. Then, I feed that into my content creation agent who spits out the images, the enhanced content, maybe some of the retail media ads. That's a very small picture of what this could look like. But the way I see AI in the role of creativity is truly as an enabler. I know it can kind of be scary when you're thinking about, "Oh, wow, AI can do all of these things." But, the way I look at it is it can take away a lot of the remedial work, and that kind of hands on keyboard work, and enable more strategic thinking. If you think about on the digital shelf side of things, creating content and looking at titles and copy editing, that takes a lot of hours and a lot of time. What if you could automate that and instead, you could talk to all of your cross functional partners, have a more cohesive campaign strategy, and then have a better experience for a consumer. That's much more valuable than being the one kind of crunching the numbers and doing the copy editing.

[00:10:31] Phillip: There's a concept that we've had sort of recurrent on our Future Commerce show, and especially one of our miniseries recently, that's come up over and over again called the positionless marketer. And this idea that we used to be in an assembly line where certain teams and certain roles in teams would do one portion of the job function, and then send it on down the line. And what you're describing definitely sounds like a fulfillment of that, where it's more one person is an orchestrator, and they look much more managerial in every single role, and that they're orchestrating many pieces. I almost see that happening today. Depending on who you are and the size of your organization, you have the ability to do some of that today. Do we see glimpses of that already? I guess we're already in 2030. But how in 2025 was that already happening? Were there glimpses in 2025 where that was already happening? And how is that more fully fulfilled in 2030?

[00:11:35] Lauren: Well, I love that you use the word orchestrator because that's the exact word that I used in the report.

[00:11:40] Phillip: It's almost like I read it. I don't know. {laughter}

[00:11:41] Lauren: I know, right? How did you possibly know? I think that's the commerce leader of the future. They are an orchestrator. And I do think today we see that in the ecommerce teams and the digital teams because you have to be, right? It's almost like when you're in ecommerce or you're on the digital shelf, you own everything and own nothing at the same time.

[00:12:00] Lauren: That's right.

[00:12:00] Phillip: Because your fate is very much determined by a lot of your cross-functional partners. So you inherently have to be an orchestrator and a connector. But the big challenge there, Phillip, is that that doesn't necessarily emanate through the rest of the organization. And all of the other functions are usually still stuck in their functional silos. And, so, what you need to do is merge those two things together. And, exactly to your point, instead of being a digital marketer and like a traditional marketer, you're just a marketer who understands digital, in-store, and every single other channel, including social commerce, that you're seeing your consumer shop at.

[00:12:41] Phillip: Don't want to stray too far afield, but in the year 2030, we have a much more keen understanding of the human behavioral aspects of the marketing discipline than we do the technological implementation of the point solutions of the digital shelf that we do today. Is that a fair assessment?

[00:13:06] Lauren: I think it's a fair assessment, because I think the future is much more focused on how you get your people to work better together, and be more cross-functional, and be more agile. We have the tech, right? The tech will continuously evolve and will get better and faster. We have a lot of technology now, but the harder part is getting the people in your org to talk to each other, to work together, to understand the same language, and it needs to be more human-centered. And that's why a huge part of this report is a call to action to HR. How do you think about recruiting differently? How do you think about career planning differently? How do you educate your entire organization? It needs to be more focused on the human. I completely agree.

[00:13:52] Phillip: To source a quote from HR, there was this pull quote that says commercial roles need to be on a spectrum and can include sales, marketing, and ecommerce. How much of that do you think is skewed towards these sort of sales functions. Do these changes and shifts in 2030 shift beyond? We think a lot of the ecommerce function as being the technology roles that enable the point of conversion. But I don't think that the sales function gets enough credit in in this transformation. How much of that are you focusing on, you know, in the 2030 shift?

[00:14:32] Lauren: I think every single function needs to be included in the transformation. I think traditionally, if you think about a sales function, right now in most organizations, there's a very clear ladder about how you level up, how you get to the top, how you become potentially a general manager or how you're leading a retail team. And it's also very clear in marketing, it is very muddy in ecommerce. And what I've actually seen with some of the interviews that I did, and I really love this example... One organization said they intentionally take people from the ecommerce team and put them into sales, put them into supply chain, and put them into IT. Because how they look at it is it's kind of like osmosis, right? You're spreading that ecommerce knowledge throughout the organization in these functions that might not have access to it. And that's the way that you actually change your organization in addition to education.

[00:15:29] Phillip: Vice versa too. Right.

[00:15:31] Lauren: Yeah, exactly. I thought that was such a brilliant idea to be so intentional about doing that. But the thing about that, Phillip, is it takes time. And that's why this is such a call to action in terms of the report because we can talk about 2030 and 2050 all we want, but in order for these organizations to transform, it's not going to happen tomorrow. It takes time to do change that is this fundamental of a shift.

[00:15:59] Phillip: It is fundamental. And so we're talking about change. Change management comes to mind. How do we manage the change from the 2025 state to the 2030 state? You talk about the reinvented organization. That's right. I like that. It's very positive framing, the reinventing of the organization.

[00:16:22] Lauren: Not a break the mold.

[00:16:23] Phillip: No. Yeah. I'm glad we're past that.

[00:16:26] Lauren: Yes. {laughter}

[00:16:29] Phillip: Why do you think brands are asking the question, where should ecommerce sit? Do you have a take on that? And is it the right question to be asking?

[00:16:39] Lauren: I think it's the question that has always been asked.

[00:16:42] Phillip: That is the question. {laughter}

[00:16:44] Lauren: You know what I mean? I think that's why people are asking the question. And if I really think back to my brand days, I was asking the same question, right? I was like, "Oh, should I sit in a COE? Should I be in sales? Should I be in marketing?" But one of the biggest aha moments in writing this research was, wait a second, we shouldn't be asking where does ecommerce sit? We should be asking how are we fundamentally changing how we work to match the way that the consumer shops? And that's a different question. And that's a mindset shift. And so I think that's really the big difference. And I'm hoping that can be a perspective shift for people to really kind of take off the blindfolds and really look at real problem. Because it's still challenging to figure out where it sits. But if you take away that question, and you say, "Oh, how should we think differently?" Maybe you can remove some of those barriers and those silos, and maybe it takes away some of the rules that were in place, and you can think bigger and you can think differently.

[00:18:48] Phillip: Is it fair to say that this report characterizes that the 2025 state of an org looks a lot like a pyramid and that there's a different shape of a 2030 organization? What is that shape?

[00:19:04] Lauren: Yeah. I would agree. I would say a lot of organizations are more hierarchical. And obviously, I'm broad brush stroking. There's definitely some organizations that are more digitally mature. So in the report, there's a bunch of different org model examples. And one of them is dynamic shared ownership. And Bayer is the company that has that model, and they're quoted in and they talk about it. You should definitely look that up because they have done a lot of great work on it. But this is not an official term that they use, but I like to think of it more of as an amoeba, right?

[00:19:36] Phillip: Oh. Yeah.

[00:19:36] Lauren: It's more like they're pivoting to the problem and they're bringing the right people with them instead of saying here is the hierarchy and here's who you should report to. They think more about, "Hey, this is a problem we're trying to solve. Let's go deploy the right people on that team for the next ninety days to solve it," and then figure out where they go to next. And that's the kind of agility that you really need because, Phillip, think about our org, how many new retail media networks came out in the past like two months, you know? And how many times did Amazon change what they were doing or Walmart came up with something new? You can't be stuck in a structure and not be able to pivot and change as those things come up.

[00:20:18] Phillip: There were some early signs in technology companies where they became very mesh-like, where you had these teams that were cross functional. And maybe thinking of the channel driven nature of omnichannel siloed our organizations in a deleterious way. And it created division where we needed less division. And maybe by 2030, having less siloed roles will help us to have more cohesive organizations. Is that a fair characterization? Or is that putting words into the mouth of the report?

[00:20:54] Lauren: No, that is incredibly fair. It needs to be a channelless type of environment. And when I paint the picture of what the future looks like, that's definitely one of the characteristics. But the hard part, Phillip, is organizations are built on that. Goals and objectives are built on that. People are bonused on those functional siloed models, right? They have the tech in place. They have the infrastructure. Everything is built on that functional model. So it takes multiple different stages to get to a point where you can actually change something like that.

[00:21:31] Phillip: Because of incrementality. Yeah, mean, because that's.. Yeah. Right.

[00:21:34] Lauren: Exactly. Yeah. So I feel like as I was writing this report, there were so many different versions of it. One version, I tried to create these steps, like a ladder, like how you can get to the reinvented org of the future. And then I was like, "Wait, I have no idea where people are starting from." So instead I thought of it more as like the key tenants. But the reason I bring that up is because one example, in order to get to a world like that, you have to have shared leadership that owns sales and marketing. A lot of organizations have shifted towards this. There's Chief Growth Officers, Chief Commercial Officers. That's one change that would need to happen in order to get there. So there's all these kind of little puzzle pieces that need to fall in place in order for you to think less about the channel and focus more on the consumer.

[00:22:22] Phillip: Chief Growth Officer, can we touch on that for a second?

[00:22:24] Lauren: Yeah.

[00:22:25] Phillip: When we're in 2030 looking back, is that a real form of governance or is that a fad?

[00:22:30] Lauren: I'm so glad you asked that question because I think if we look at the past of like the Chief Digital Officer, for example,

[00:22:38] Phillip: Right. {laughter}

[00:22:38] Lauren: I do think that...

[00:22:39] Phillip: Which is why I'm asking.

[00:22:40] Lauren: Yes. I figured this is where you were going. So the Chief Digital Officer at the time made a lot of sense because you think about ecommerce, it's a new capability. You need people to adopt it. You need a seat at the table. You need to make sure that that capability is embedded in the org. Then it should be a part of everyday life, so that role goes away. Same with something like the Chief AI Officer. I think we're going to see a lot of those pop up and then they're going in to go the next couple of years. Because it'll get brought back into the business. But I don't think that about a Chief Growth Officer specifically because the whole point of that is to have visibility across the entire consumer journey at more of an umbrella level. It means that you understand sales, you understand marketing, you understand in store and online, and you can make decisions that are for the betterment of the entire business versus just a channel. It just makes sense when you're thinking about what this reinvented org looks like. And when you're thinking about omnichannel, that is the true definition of what it is.

[00:23:44] Phillip: Hold on. That feels very important. Repeat that real quick.

[00:23:47] Lauren: The true definition of omnichannel is having a leader who is accountable for the entire consumer journey. That's what a Chief Growth Officer is.

[00:23:55] Phillip: Got it.

[00:23:56] Lauren: They own sales, they own marketing, they own that consumer journey. So that would be retail media, DTC, consumer experience, customer care center, all of the places that a consumer is interacting with that specific brand.

[00:24:10] Phillip: So here's an interesting question, and we didn't prep for this, but...

[00:24:15] Lauren: I'm ready.

[00:24:17] Phillip: Why open the report then with setting the stage of all of Walmart's 2024 growth happened in digital? What are you trying to convey if the digital portion of its business was so important to incrementality in the business or the proof point that retail media was an important channel for all of us to depend on? Or what's the what there?

[00:24:38] Lauren: It's the proof point that it's significant enough that you need to consider it in your entire business. It's not just in-store, it is also digital and online. And yes, in-store is a very big piece of the puzzle. But Phillip, I still have conversations with organizations that ask me if they should be focused on digital, right?

[00:24:57] Phillip: Oh, wow. I didn't know that was still happening.

[00:24:59] Lauren: It's still happening. It really still is happening. And I think it was one of those moments to try and say, "Hey, organizations, hey, leadership... If it's big enough for your biggest retailer to focus on it, then you need to focus on it too." And when I actually set out to write this report, I was first writing like, "Oh, where should ecommerce sit? Here's a sales example. Here's a marketing example." And I was like, "Wait, wait, wait," like I said, that's a wrong question that we should be asking. But I do want to reiterate here that depending on your level of maturity as an organization, you can't go from zero to 500.

[00:25:36] Phillip: Right.

[00:25:36] Lauren: You might need to ask yourself, "Hey, what is my setup now for ecommerce? And am I thinking about it at the right stage of my maturity?" But you also need to have your eye on 2030 or the future, and think about what steps you need to take now to be able to get to that reinvented org.

[00:27:19] Phillip: What about the consumer side and the agentic experience for the consumer? How are we, as leaders, making sure that agents are taking in the full surface area of products? How are we making sure that it takes in everything we really want it to? How is it gonna act interact with retail media in the way and not just be blind to the ad units that we're running. In 2030, how do we really ensure that the work that we're doing is being maximally being taken in by this brand new audience? And is that a capability that we can start to plan for it to grow for as a skill?

[00:28:30] Lauren: I feel like that's the million dollar question, Phillip. And if you and I had a perfect crystal ball, then we would be billionaires in 2030 because we know the exact answer to that question. {laughter}

[00:28:38] Phillip: Sure.

[00:28:39] Lauren: But what I would say is there's a lot of talk about AI, and I do believe that it is fundamentally changing the way we work and our industry. But at the end of the day, it is still connected to the fundamentals. If you do not have the right data in the right places, you don't know where it is, and you're not putting it on all of the places that a consumer or an agent can find that information, then you will not be discovered. So I think there's kind of two stages of it. The first one being the fundamental data stage. Are you showing up consistently as a brand on your retailer site, on your DTC site, on all of the social channels you might have? On Reddit, on YouTube, on all of the places that LLMs are scraping? And then I think the second piece is really understanding, as much as you can because it will shift, how much your consumer or how your consumer is shopping because there is a world where it's more going to be agent to agent communication. So the brand is going to train their agent on your specific brand guidelines, and it's going to talk to the agent at the retailer, and they're going to have a conversation and recommend a product to a consumer. So the only influence you have in that situation is your data and your guidelines and all of your products. But you also need to understand, is that how your consumers are shopping? That might not be the same for the grocery category versus the electronic category versus the pet care category. And what are other ways that you can begin to influence your consumer? And where are they consuming that information? I don't necessarily know if 2030 is the time where we're gonna fully remove humans from the experience of shopping. Who really knows? But you still need to get your data right to be ready for when that world does come.

[00:30:27] Phillip: I like that a lot. I like that as an answer a lot.

[00:30:33] Lauren: Thanks, Phillip.

[00:30:34] Phillip: Oh, I well, because it actually gives you something tangible to do in the meantime and it is an actionable step. We don't do a lot of actionable on Future Commerce. So the the it's something that you can really think about as a what I can meaningfully contribute to shaping the future right now instead of hoping or praying or being shaped by whatever's happening culturally. Because I think the future happens to a lot of people.

[00:31:04] Lauren: Yes.

[00:31:05] Phillip: Right? And I think most people want to learn how to be prepared for what is going to happen within. For instance, we ran our own sort of state of AI and commerce research two years ago. It was the first of its kind in our little neck of the woods. And we asked people in 2023. So it was June 2023, six months after ChatGPT. Are you using AI every day in a work capacity? And we sort of paired that up with does your work know and/or do they have a policy allowing it or forbidding it? And we found that of the respondents in ecommerce-focused businesses, 91% of the respondents in our survey, which are in our audience and are more future forward anyway, early adopters, 91% of people copped to already using AI in their role. Most people had a corporate policy forbidding it. And it's like people are going to use things that get the job done.

[00:32:11] Lauren: Yes.

[00:32:11] Phillip: They're going to. So people are already preparing for something that's going to, you know, make them more efficient. Things that are going to help to future proof. They're going to help shape it. I think that the challenge is the organizational shift, like we were talking about before, is the key. How do we not just let it happen? How do we proactively change manage into it?

[00:32:39] Lauren: Well, there's two phases of the coin, right? There's the internal shift for AI, which we're talking about with org structures and ways of working.

[00:32:44] Phillip: Yup.

[00:32:44] Lauren: But then there's that external shift too, where you need to make sure that you are optimizing your content for agents, you're providing them with all the information that they need. There's these different types of transformations that you need to go through. But I also think we live in our bubble a lot, and we know the lingo, and we're using the tools, but I always find it funny... So my husband works in pharmaceutical development. And sometimes I have him go on Amazon and he's like, "Oh, just click that one." I'm like, "No, no, that's the sponsored product. Don't click on that. You want to see which one is the most organic."

[00:33:20] Phillip: {laughter} Right.

[00:33:20] Lauren: You know what I mean? But I think about that with AI too. We talk about ChatGPT, we talk about agents, we talk about using them to recommend products and shopping. But if I pulled someone randomly off the street, I don't know if they're yet at that point. But with Google now incorporating AI into everything that they're doing, I think we're closer to that point. So I also think it's important to really kind of step back and say, "Okay, we live in this world, we use it, and it's really important to us and it's helping us. But from a consumer lens, are our consumers there yet?" I don't know the answer to that. It depends on the category and who you're talking to, but I just think it's a good level set.

[00:34:04] Phillip: So this might be sort of circling back around. We sort of went broad. I do want to touch on a couple of things that I know are key to the report and sort of in your wheelhouse that I think by 2030, we'll have a very clear sense of what has happened in the industry. There's a few things that I felt like were interesting data points like 200 plus retail media networks that currently operate in The United States or, you know, in North America, 600 plus globally. Joint business planning, I think, comes up in the report. How do you practically bring retail media network spend into joint business planning so retailers kind of hear one story, avoid double counting wins? Do we solve that by 2030? Is that an AI solution? Is that a team org shift? And you are in a position where you get to talk to hundreds of retailers who have this problem right now. What's the go deep versus go broad rule by 2030? What do you think?

[00:35:11] Lauren: Well, we're in JBP season now, so great timing for this question. I've actually done another research report on JBP. So I'm so glad you asked that.

[00:35:19] Phillip: Plug it here.

[00:35:21] Lauren: Same, digitalshelfinstitute.org. Just search JBP. We even built out a framework. So what I would say is I'm actually seeing it happen now where more organizations are having joint, actual joint business planning. So let me take a step back. When I say joint business planning, a lot of organizations do a retail media JBP, a broader business JBP, an executive JBP. So they have these three separate joint, I'm air quoting, business planning conversations that are not joint. I'm seeing the trend of organizations begin to show up as one company. And that's one of the key tenants in this report. Brands have to show up to their retailers as one company. And in that JBP research, I actually also interviewed retailers. And the biggest question they had was, "I don't know who to talk to because there's 15 different people that are involved in this." So I think I'm already seeing it now, Phillip, but I think if brands are not doing it by 2030, then they are not going to be their retailer's best partner. They are not going to be able to achieve captaincy. They are not going to be able to be at the forefront of tests and learns and new opportunities with their retailers, just because it's confusing. And then you're promising dollars on with your left hand that your right hand doesn't know about. And then when you look at the full picture, you actually don't have those dollars to promise. So I'm seeing it start now because it has to. But I also think with the way that retail media is changing, one of the biggest struggles at brands is what budget does it come from?

[00:36:57] Phillip: Yeah.

[00:36:58] Lauren: That's a big, big, big question. And it really depends on the company, and it depends on how your finance has set it up. And I think that's one of the biggest barriers to having a complete joint business plan.

[00:37:12] Phillip: I hate to ask because I certainly wouldn't want to put you on blast or ask you to put anyone on blast. What's the worst case scenario? And what's the best case scenario as you see it today?

[00:37:30] Lauren: For JBP?

[00:37:32] Phillip: Sure. What is the definitely don't do versus definitely do do that puts you in a great position for 2030 versus puts you in a terrible position for 2030?

[00:37:46] Lauren: Here's a real life example.

[00:37:49] Phillip: That's what I wanted. {laughter}

[00:37:51] Lauren: This is a don't do. Sales team goes in, chats with retailer A, and says, "Oh, yeah, we'll commit to like 2,000,000 spend for next year." Doesn't tell the marketing team. The marketing team has only a budget of $1,000,000. And I'm making these numbers up, but 1,000,000 for their entire collaboration with that specific retailer. And the retailer's like, "Wait, your sales team already committed to $2,000,000." Then they have their internal communication. They say, "We didn't budget for that. So now we need to pull that from another retailer and change our entire joint business planning for that retailer." That is a real life story of what happened with the left hand not talking to the right hand. So that's a don't.

[00:38:36] Phillip: I think part of me wants to be like, "How does that even happen?" But like, I know exactly how that happened.

[00:38:42] Lauren: Exactly.

[00:38:44] Phillip: I've lived through that. Okay.

[00:38:47] Lauren: So in terms of what you should do... Not that. In terms of what you should do, definitely start planning early. And what I've seen as a best practice is starting, and I know this sounds crazy, but in a large organization, you need time. Start six months early, and get every single person in the room that you need to have a joint conversation. I mean, bring in your executive leadership, bring in supply chain, bring in R&D, bring in shopper marketing, category management, RGM, whoever it is that needs to be involved in JBP, sit them in a room physically or digitally and have a joint conversation, start six months ahead, and then clearly say to your retailer partner, "These are the people on the call. These are why they're on the call. And here's who you need to talk to for what." That is what I've seen to be best practice. And I have seen examples where when the retailer feels like you are a great collaborative partner, and it's easy to work with you, they'll come to you first. They'll say, "Hey, we're piloting this new data that we want to share with you. Are you interested?" "Hey, we want to do this new activation in store. Do you want to try it with us first?" Right? There's a benefit to being one company showing up to your customers and your retailer partners.

[00:40:07] Phillip: We can probably talk about it on the other side of the pod. This has been great, by the way. I'm loving this. I think we're going to get a little more tactical on part two.

[00:40:18] Lauren: It won't be 2030. It'll be 2025.

[00:40:20] Phillip: I love that. I love that. I'm curious in the best case scenarios here, do all of the models of the omnichannel organization of the future that you've outlined here, which, by the way, it's a gorgeous report. I'm very jealous.

[00:40:35] Lauren: Thank you.

[00:40:35] Phillip: There are four. So there's the Agile Pod model, the Dynamic Shared Ownership model, which, by the way, I'm like obsessed with. The AI Future model, which sounds really freaking rad. There's four of them. Are all of these set up in such a way to have the same sort of outcome that you're suggesting? Is that a question we can answer in the next phase here? Can they all have the success that you're suggesting in this sort of 2030 future? And can they achieve that success with all their retailer partners, RMNs, all the rest?

[00:41:19] Lauren: I think that's an excellent question. And I think the way I'm going to answer it is that the boxes on the org chart are not what matters. The mindset shift in the way of working is what matters. So we could take this beautiful model and apply it to an organization, And it could be perfect on paper, but they don't have the right culture. They don't have the right shared goals. They don't have the right mindset. They're not thinking about it correctly. So when it comes to org structure, people automatically go to those models first. I almost didn't put them in the report because...

[00:41:55] Phillip: I know why. I know why.

[00:41:56] Lauren: People are like, "What should my box be?" "Should they be a VP? Should they be a this?" I'm like, "That's not the question. That's not the problem that you're trying to solve. Your boxes are probably not way off. But the way that you're working, the way that you're thinking, the way that you're measuring is the problem." So I don't know if I fully answered your question, but there's no perfect answer that you can apply to any company that's like, "Yes, board structure one is what you should do and everything's going to be perfect." It's all the like nuances and the how behind it that actually drives the success.

[00:42:34] Phillip: Lauren Livak Gilbert, this is the show to say "it depends" on. {laughter}

[00:42:38] Lauren: It depends. {laughter}

[00:42:38] Phillip: It's also the show to be like, "Well, the culture is everything." That's also this show.

[00:42:46] Lauren: Yes. Because commerce is culture.

[00:42:47] Phillip: Oh, there you go. You said it. I love it. That is the thing. Everybody's context is different. And I think the context in which you apply something is key. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think we should probably just shift over. I want to get tactical. That's not like it.

[00:43:09] Lauren: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:43:10] Phillip: I want to hear it. I want to hear how we do it. I want to hear how we get there. Where can people find Digital Shelf Institute? How can people connect with you? I assume that you're very active on LinkedIn. I know you are.

[00:43:19] Lauren: Yes. Digitalshelfinstitute.org. They can find the research, they can find the podcast, everything's there. And then yeah, please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. Happy to chat. Always love chatting with a fellow ecommerce professional.

[00:43:34] Phillip: I'm linking this report. Go check it out. It's a fantastic report. Once again, it's Reinventing the Organization for Omnichannel Success: Beyond Where ecommerce Sits from the Digital Shelf Institute. It's been a pleasure. Lauren Livak Gilbert, we need to have you back sometime.

[00:43:50] Lauren: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I will come back anytime.

[00:43:53] Phillip: Sooner than seven years. Let's do that.

[00:43:55] Lauren: Yes, please. {laughter}

‍