How to Win Loyalty When Everyone’s On Sale

[00:01:39] Phillip: Hello, [00:01:30] and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast at the intersection of culture and commerce. I'm Phillip, and today we are diving into the findings of the brand new 2025 Consumer Holiday Shopping Report from Optimove, and it's a report that unpacks some of the biggest concerns that consumers have and behaviors around consumers that [00:02:00] are shaping this year's retail landscape. So today, we're going to cover inflation and tariffs and shifting in loyalty and how consumers cherry pick deals and how Gen Z approaches holiday shopping. So we're going to dive deep into this report, you can get this report, we've linked it down in the show notes below. And here with us today to break it all down, we're joined by the person who leads the team behind the report. He is the SVP of Global Revenue at Optimove, bringing over a decade of experience and [00:02:30] transforming customer data into actionable, culturally aware marketing insights. Previously, he headed up Optimove's strategic consulting arm, guiding Fortune 500 companies through the evolution from traditional CRM to AI powered personalization at scale. His work has been recognized internationally because he's a sought after speaker on the global stage for his expertise in consumer marketing. Welcome to the show, Moshe Demri. Welcome to Future Commerce.

[00:02:57] Moshe Demri: Thank you very much, Phillip. Very excited to be [00:03:00] here. Looking forward for our discussion.

[00:03:02] Phillip: Yeah. Glad to have you. We're post this change in The United States, we've got a lot of concerns in ecommerce, we're going to talk a little bit about that today. We've had a lot of change in marketing organizations with AI. You have a unique vantage point in your organization where you have data from a global perspective on shifts and that you oversee not just revenue, but you have insights at Optimove that shows customer [00:03:30] concerns at a global scale that data that's moving through your platform. So you can look into all sorts of concerns like not just tariffs, but inflation data. But as we get into it, tell us a little bit about what you're doing in your role at Optimove right now.

[00:03:47] Moshe Demri: Sure. So I'm currently mainly focused on the commercial aspect of the business, but I joined Optimove twelve years ago as a data engineer. [00:04:00] So before the role even existed, right, back in the day it was all, you know, BI analysts, so just a general engineer. So my roots are really in everything which is around data and really helping brands to get to transform their data into insights. And at some point, I actually led our professional services department, So I was lucky enough [00:04:30] to work with some of the biggest brands in the world, leading brands in The US, a lot of retail and ecommerce brands on just getting more out of their data and working on their CRM strategy, working very closely with them. In the last five or six years, I took a little bit of a higher level role, I would say, but I'm still very much involved in the day to day working with our clients, making sure our clients are successful using [00:05:00] the platform as they should, but also thinking more about the future strategy of the company, what's ahead, where do we need to focus, what's out there, and some of the exciting things we are going to talk about today, I'm sure. Yeah.

[00:05:17] Brian: That sounds like a fun job actually, thinking out ahead. And as we look ahead later this year, we're actually quite close now to holiday. And Optimove [00:05:30] Insights actually showed that 81% of consumers are worried about tariffs and 80% about inflation. And so shoppers may be more cautious potentially. So what do you think about this upcoming holiday season? How is this gonna impact how retailers and brands think about how to connect with those customers, and what do you think that they should do?

[00:05:53] Moshe Demri: Right. So I'm very curious about that as well. I'm actually quite looking forward to see the [00:06:00] data of what they call the golden quarter in January and see how consumer actually behaved. But my guess would be that because the concerns consumers have about tariffs, about inflation, what we usually see around holiday, I think is going to be a little bit more extreme this year. Customers are kind of being bucketed into three main buckets. [00:06:30] You have the customers that will buy without discounts. They know what they want, they know what they need, they will just come and buy it regardless of whether the item is on discount or not. And then on the other end of the equation or the spectrum, you have what we call the cherry pickers. And those are usually the customers that will come and they will take a high discount and we wait for the high discount and they will buy once [00:07:00] and we'll churn. When we view data every year, you know, we look at the data and we look at the customers who bought with high discount, usually during the holiday season, and we see that the retention rate is close to zero. I think the interesting, the very interesting group is the third group, which is somewhere in between. And we used to call them the charm customers. And they are the ones that we look for the 10% or 15% discount. [00:07:30] So a small discount that we give them, you know, a good feeling that someone took care of them, someone care about them, the brand is looking after them, and they feel charmed about it. Right? And in all of the analysis we ran over the years, we've seen that this group of charm customers, the 10 to 50% discount, have the highest retention rates when you look three, six, nine months forward. And [00:08:00] I think a lot of times it's a bit counterintuitive for brands, and they are spending way too much on promotions, a lot of times jeopardizing the brand value and actually are also attracting customers that are less loyal and long term will be not as good for their brand.

[00:08:27] Phillip: I think one of the key takeaways here is, [00:08:30] and I would urge people to go and take a look at the insights that are in this Consumer Holiday Shopping Survey that Optimove Insights has published, because I think there's a lot of depth and nuance to be found in it. This was published back in July. I think it's really imperative to see it sort of, I don't even know that it's captured as a moment in time, Moshe, just of the I think the tenor of the global consumer of what they're [00:09:00] thinking. But I think it also helps us to architect what shopping preferences needs and values will be in going into how people are thinking about the way that their needs are changing and what their shopping priorities will be beyond just the holiday season. Because I think that those things are changing dramatically. And the way that we're thinking about our spending priorities beyond not just holiday shopping, but the way we're [00:09:30] spending money online, I think is dramatically changing in light of how we're doing our search and discovery is also changing too. And so all of these rapid changes aren't mere environmental factors. They're not just here for a moment, just because of economic concerns or tariffs or inflation. To your point, it's not just a holiday discussion. I think that this is a much broader trend that we're seeing that will stick along around much further. [00:10:00] So I think this is a really important study to take a look at. We're linking it down in the show notes, and people should go take a look.

[00:10:06] Moshe Demri: I think it's a great point. I'm quite anxious when I'm getting the holiday season is progressing when I wanna buy things. Even with brands that I really like and I'm quite a loyal consumer to, I really want to avoid a case where I'll buy something and then, you know, two weeks after, it will be on discounts.

[00:10:27] Brian: Totally.

[00:10:28] Phillip: Totally.

[00:10:29] Moshe Demri: Everyone hates this [00:10:30] feeling. And I think the the best brands for me that are, you know, buying my loyalty, especially during this time, just before the holidays are kicking in, are those that are transparent about what's going to happen in the next two or three months. I think the best emails I received over the years were emails in October saying, "This is the only Black Friday promotion you will see from us," and kinda telling me what to expect. And [00:11:00] this way, I'm a bit relaxed, and I know I can buy whatever I wanted to buy in October or maybe November. And I won't get disappointed afterwards because the item I wanna buy is going to be on discount.

[00:11:13] Brian: That's really smart. Yeah. I think that transparency really helps. This gets back to something that's really challenging right now, and it gets back to tariffs. Messaging has been a really big challenge for a lot of people. How much transparency do you provide [00:11:30] has been a topic of discussion at many dinners that we've been at recently and salons that we run.

[00:11:37] Phillip: You can say that again.

[00:11:38] Brian: Yeah. I'm curious, this is a very transparent approach you're suggesting, and I like it. I think it's really smart to be upfront with your customers. Depending on the type of brand that you are. Certain brands or retailers, they're known for just dropping insane sales all the [00:12:00] time or big sales as you go into Black Friday it's sort of expected. And there are other brands that hardly ever discount. And you may have seen them run a Black Friday sale, but you don't know for sure if it's gonna happen. So I do think it it might depend on the type of retailer you are. But I'm curious, the messaging around tariffs in this season, this will be the first BFCM with tariffs. What [00:12:30] do you see as a way to navigate some of that and mitigate maybe some of the challenges of higher prices potentially?

[00:12:39] Moshe Demri: Yeah. First of all, I completely agree with you that it's very hard to change things, especially for brands who already the consumer or the customers are already used to those discounts. So when [00:13:00] you set this expectation and a lot of times it becomes this race to the bottom between brands because everyone's doing...

[00:13:09] Brian: It's a drug.

[00:13:09] Moshe Demri: Exactly. It's like a drug. So you need to do it carefully for sure. I always say that instead of when you look at the holiday season, think about your promotion budget, right? Take the budget that you are willing to spend [00:13:30] on discounts, on promotions, and then try to very carefully and strategically distribute this budget between different value groups you have in your client base. I'm always amazed how most companies are not doing that. They're not really looking at, "Okay, am I really giving 20% of my promotion budget to the VIPs who are generating [00:14:00] 20% of my revenue?" And same for my high tier consumers, mid tier consumers, and so on and so forth. A lot of time we see that actually the low tier consumers, the less loyal ones, the cherry pickers we talked about, are getting a big chunk of this discount budget.

[00:14:19] Phillip: Right.

[00:14:20] Moshe Demri: I also think that one of the worst thing that can happen to a brand in Black Friday is that there is a discount and a loyal [00:14:30] customer sees email, and then once they come to the website, everything's sold out. So it's always a good idea to start and actually give more, invest more into your loyal customers, and then kinda see how it goes. And with the budget you have left, you can try to be creative and do other things.

[00:14:50] Phillip: Sure.

[00:14:51] Moshe Demri: Yeah.

[00:14:51] Phillip: I do want to sort of point something out is the brands that tend to be more transparent, to your point about setting [00:15:00] the expectation with their customer about what to expect with regard to sales or with regard to Black Friday season, like, "Here's what our marketing calendar is going to be. Here's how you can plan to engage with us, because here's how we plan to engage with you." I want to believe that it's because they're better at planning and they're better at modeling and forecasting. They know what to expect financially to return [00:15:30] from that season because they understand the data, they understand their seasonality, they understand what their return on their investment typically is in their marketing, their performance with their customer. And they've been doing this a long time. They're really good at their jobs. It's when marketers and merchandisers tend to underperform and they miss the mark. That's when you start seeing the thrashing. And that's when you [00:16:00] start seeing the "We never do this email," or the "Just one more time," or "We've extended a day." People get off plan, that's when they start to deviate from plan. And I think that almost always is because of the bad inputs. And I think in an ideal scenario, most everybody wants to stick to a plan. They want the plan to work. And I think to have a good plan, you need a great model, and you have to have really great tools and really great data to help forecast appropriately. Is that [00:16:30] a fair assessment?

[00:16:31] Moshe Demri: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. I completely agree. I think the problem we still see today with lots of retailers is that once the business has a little bit of pressure that is coming from above, usually the trading team is the team that dictates what the consumer is going to see on a daily [00:17:00] basis. It's not the CRM marketing team or the retention team that are actually are, they're supposed to be the ones that are deciding what the customers see, what the consumers see, they are customer centric. No, it's someone from the trading team that is saying, "Okay, we need to push. Numbers are a little bit down, we need to push discounts. We need to see orders are spiking."

[00:17:26] Phillip: That's right.

[00:17:27] Moshe Demri: And it creates this false increase [00:17:30] in revenue, which which then dips very fast, very fast.

[00:17:36] Brian: Mmhmm.

[00:17:36] Moshe Demri: So, yeah, I think that planning and data is a big part of it. It's related to positionless marketing in many ways. Because what we are saying a lot of times is once you have the data and you can easily understand from the data what's working and whether those discounts are actually generating revenue, are you losing money because of them, are you getting [00:18:00] money, are those customers that you acquired through those high discounts look like retention wise after six, twelve months and so on and so forth... Once marketeers are able to do those or run those analysis and look at this data easily, it makes it much easier to learn and then plan accordingly. So I completely agree. It's a really great point.

[00:19:28] Brian: It's [00:19:00] a tough balance, though, because [00:19:30] it feels like you have to balance, like, just getting people to buy stuff versus picking up a customer that's gonna have a longer lifetime value. Because you do need some of those cherry picker sales sometimes to make your year, even if you're at a lower margin. And who's to say you can't reconvert some of those cherry pickers if you're a good retention marketing team and the product [00:20:00] is good, sometimes those deep discount people can win. And in fact, when you talked about the three types of shoppers, I was like, actually, there's a secret fourth thing. {laughter} Which is this guy right here. Although I know this is a smaller category. I'm a guy who traditionally has been a very, very Black Friday centric type guy. Love pricing [00:20:30] and the theory of pricing. I'm absolutely obsessed with understanding why someone would discount something so deeply and when and how and I buy when I think that someone's about to lose money. It's so bad. It's so awful. And to quote a friend of mine, Andrew McLuhan, "You should always leave money on the table." I'm coming around. There are certain products in this world that are built to be purchased at a discount. My [00:21:00] point in saying this, though, is I think that there is someone who may not have the gumption to try a brand for a first time without being at a certain price point. But once they get the product, they may be someone that can be reconverted if they find it to be really good.

[00:21:21] Phillip: That's true.

[00:21:22] Brian: When you think through balancing how deep of a sale to hit with versus finding [00:21:30] ways to engage every purchaser, is there a strategy that you think that could be available for a post holiday where you can capture not just the first and third categories, but capture that cherry picker as well? And is there a different strategy for addressing those different segments, for example if someone that bought it 75% off versus someone who bought it 15% off?

[00:21:56] Moshe Demri: Yeah. It's a really good point. I also [00:22:00] agree, by the way. I think it happens to me sometimes. Well, something is super expensive, and I'll probably won't go for it. But if I see a discount, I'll buy it, and then I see, "Wow. It's such an amazing product, and I might go back to it." And we see it a lot. We see it a lot in ecommerce, in retail. The way we usually, in the past, analyze that [00:22:30] is looking how specific items can can drive second time purchasers, third time purchasers, and so on and so on. And then it it gets really interesting. So I remember we used to work with a client back in the day that they used to sell leggings. Women leggings. And there was one specific legging that [00:23:00] once their consumers had bought it, the chances of them buying it again were extremely high.

[00:23:12] Brian: Mhmm.

[00:23:13] Moshe Demri: And that's exactly because of the reason you're saying because they fell in love with the product. It was a really good product. And then they kind of funneled a lot of their acquisition budgets to, "Oh, let's push power [00:23:30] leggings." I think they were called power leggings back then. And it really drove good consumers that bought again, because of the quality of the product. But the insights came from the data, and the data kind of led them to create this campaign, and they were transparent about it, right? It was on their website, it was like, "You know, if you buy for the first time, there's a discount." So [00:24:00] it's not as bad if I'm already a loyal client because I know, "Okay, it's a first time thing." It's only for the ones who are buying for the first time. So I think there are some ways to do it. Another one I like, by the way, that is good for cherry pickers is just push everyone as a sales page. Any website you go to, there's always a promotion page.

[00:24:29] Phillip: Right.

[00:24:29] Moshe Demri: Usually, [00:24:30] it's like old stock and things, and it's open to everyone. Just promote that. Right? You have your cherry picker. Just give them an extra 10% on the discounted prices and try to do that. And then you can kind of balance things a little bit.

[00:24:47] Phillip: It really does require playing. Retention plays the long game. Right? So in some ways, like you're taking the longer term value of [00:25:00] having a customer that's in your retention marketing program. There's lots of different types of customers that sit in lots of different segments and value segments in your business. And so, you know, a cherry picker customer is still a customer, right? So we do have to think about them in a different sort of way. I think we often think about a Black Friday customer. A Black Friday customer is very specific type of a customer too. [00:25:30] It does drive a lot of customer acquisition. I think brands tend to struggle with that post holiday retention and loyalty creation. And I think that's where people have talked about it as being like a feature or a bug, right? Do those people come and purchase intra year and like during the year cycle, or are they only like a once a year purchaser on a Black Friday cycle? And I think that that could be like, is that a perfectly fine value exchange [00:26:00] between you and a customer to have a once a year purchase out of Black Friday? Because I think that, if the goal is to try to push customers into a certain sort of a skew, that is a drives higher loyalty, maybe that should just dictate your strategy for that season. Or maybe we should be rethinking the way that we're having relationships with customers that we acquire during specific sales seasons. What do you think about that?

[00:26:29] Moshe Demri: It's [00:26:30] a great question for brands who have been around for a few years. Usually, it's quite easy to analyze, and try to understand repeat rate of customers during holiday season. I remember we used to run those analysis back in the day, and you do see a lot of overlaps. Right? You I remember some brands, you see, like, 30-40% of consumers who bought in one holiday season bought in the holiday season [00:27:00] after. And then I think I actually think it's perfectly fine. It's okay. And I would actually promote to those people probably around holiday season and try not to kinda be over spammy unless I have something something important to say and make sure that I'm using compelling events ahead of time in order to communicate with them. And [00:27:30] by the way, we usually see that it's best to do it in October, the beginning of October, and then the chances they will react to it and the chances they will actually make another purchase is much higher compared to the fatigue they will get in November because they are getting 50 emails every day from everyone else. And some brands are doing it in a very clever way, asking during [00:28:00] checkout whether they are buying a gift. The best ones is the ones that are giving a free, they will pack it nicely for you, they will add a card. But then you know actually, this client, you know, he never shared. He was never a client. He bought a gift for someone. So maybe maybe my message to him would be, "Okay. It's holiday season again. Remember, you bought it for your friend. Maybe you should buy it again to another friend or maybe you should treat yourself now." So [00:28:30] I think that, like, collecting as as much data as you can and then looking back at it is the way to do it, but it's definitely fun. It's an interesting segment to look at.

[00:30:38] Phillip: Context [00:30:30] is king, right? So every business's context will be different. I think there's a chance that what works for one team won't work for another. I think that's where test and learn really comes in. For instance, there has been a trend in post purchase marketing, and we've seen a lot of post purchase marketing folks. I've [00:31:00] seen direct post purchase, like post checkout upsells has been a big trend in ecommerce last five or seven years. You might even say post purchases is the new pre purchase. There's a lot of data that I've seen in and there's some here even in this holiday consumer shopping report that you put out that says the importance of turning holiday shoppers into lifetime customers that there's sort of a cultural shift from viewing December 26 as the end of the shopping season and to seeing it as the beginning shopping season. How [00:31:30] can brands turn gift givers like you were just talking about into customers? And is it really just as simple as just understanding that delineation point between highlighting themselves as like, "I'm a gift giver," and then you just market to them or speak to them differently? Is that they're on just a separate segmentation, they're on a separate communication track, or a separate frequency? Or is there something fundamentally different in the way that you treat them and segment them and market to them?

[00:31:56] Moshe Demri: Yeah. I think you should definitely treat them [00:32:00] differently. There are usually two strategies I like when it comes to... And I really like what you said about I hope it's happening. I'm not sure it's happening, but I hope that brands will will start to kind of look at the holiday season as the beginning of the year and not as, "Okay, we need to kind of do as much as we can because then it stops, then we start again in nine months."

[00:32:27] Phillip: Right.

[00:32:28] Moshe Demri: I think some clever ways [00:32:30] to do it would, you know, and a lot of brands are doing it, is to include an offer for the next purchase when you buy your first one already. Right? So sometimes when you get, when you actually get the box or after you completed the purchase, you get an email, and there's a timestamp to it usually. Three months, four months, five months, get for your next pay, for next purchase, you get an extra 10% or an hour gift or whatever. And [00:33:00] then it creates some urgency, and it gives them maybe a reason to buy again. And if they bought for something else, maybe for someone else, maybe they will use it for themselves now. That's one strategy I like. But then, you know, we talked about being careful with promotions and that's not being very careful, although you can do it in a nice way that hopefully those consumers will become charmed by a [00:33:30] small discount. I honestly feel like the best way to kinda win them over would be to make sure that what you communicate with them is interesting and engaging, and it goes beyond just your products and you trying to sell them a product. Right?

[00:33:55] Phillip: Right.

[00:33:56] Moshe Demri: And, unfortunately, there are not a lot of [00:34:00] like brands that are doing it very well, but those who do, you know, I have some brands I'm following and I'm really looking forward for their emails because they tell a story. They tell me the story of the brand, of the production, of the different stories. They curate content and things that are related to what they are selling, and then the emails are not coming as frequent, but when I get an email from them, I guess what? I actually [00:34:30] read it. I read it. I look into it because it's engaging. And I think those are brands that really appreciate it. Also, The customer data to have someone who's actually opted in to hearing from you is an asset by itself. Especially in the world of privacy and consumers being a little bit more careful about their data [00:35:00] and actually subscribing for receiving messages, that goes a long way. So you want to make sure that you are not losing those consumers that will opt out quickly because you're just sending them promotions and items to buy.

[00:35:15] Phillip: Such a good piece of advice because I think that transcends the transactional nature of the relationship, And it actually seeks to have a long term valuable relationship. And I think that that's [00:35:30] sort of the X factor. I think customers really can sense that. And we said this before, and I know I've received some criticism for it. I think there's just too many brands. Customers have so many choices. There's an infinite amount of choice out there, and they will go and find another brand that serves them and has that emotional resonance that they're looking for. And it could be you, that could be the relationship [00:36:00] that they desire with your brand if you did things a little differently. I know we're sort of coming up on time. We have a another conversation, I think, ahead in the next couple weeks. But I do want to cover one more concept of fatigue here. There's in this report says that 70% are unsubscribing due to overwhelming [00:36:30] volume. I think we just talked about that to some degree. By October, 55% of customers in this consumer segment are already feeling overwhelmed by promotions. I think we're like a week away from that deluge. And by November, it's about 71%. So how does focusing on the quality of the communication rather than quantity help brands cut through the noise? And I'm going to add to that, how do you do that without being sensational? [00:37:00] How do you do that without you being sensational in subject lines and resorting to clickbait? Because I think that that's the easy way out for most brands to do it.

[00:37:12] Moshe Demri: So this one is really tricky. What happened, unfortunately, to the space is that this race to the bottom is also happens when it comes to the mailboxes of consumers. Usually, brands are looking, "Okay. I can send this email, [00:37:30] and there's only upside." They don't really think about the downside, and the downside is exactly this consumer opting out. And once they opted out, know that acquiring a customer is what, six, seven, eight times more expensive than retaining an existing one.

[00:37:52] Phillip: Exactly.

[00:37:53] Moshe Demri: Once the client is clicked, then go and pay Meta and Google a ridiculous [00:38:00] amount of money to bring him back. If I'm a retailer, I look at all of my competitors, and they are just sending an email every day, and they're saying, "Okay. I wanna be on the top of the inbox. So I'm going to do the same thing." I think it's wrong. I think that and we've seen it, by the way, we've seen that if you move from a daily frequency to a weekly frequency, you get better results. That's a little bit counterintuitive, [00:38:30] and and again, I know it's not easy. I think brands needs to be brave and really try it out, even do an A/B test and test whether like seven emails, an email every day versus, you know, two emails a week and see what's better, what works better and then learn from it implement. The other thing is just try to do it as early as you can. So we are already in it's the September. Try [00:39:00] to focus your efforts in the next two, three weeks because later on, it's a bit harder.

[00:39:07] Phillip: Great advice. I think we're also... We just put out this report, Moshe, on the lengthening of the holiday season and how it used to sort of kick off. There was sort of like, what's the official start to holiday marketing? And I think now it's getting further and [00:39:30] further back. I think we were starting to see holiday kickoff in like, middle September. Now I'm starting to see some early "get in early" days, there's like, early prime deal days, like the prime big deal days are now the early kickoff to the season. That's not even q4 yet. {laughter}

[00:39:51] Moshe Demri: Yeah.

[00:39:51] Phillip: So starting to see those like, "Hey, be prepared, we're going to send you our holiday catalog [00:40:00] that's going to land in the next few weeks." I think those early prep emails are the first communications. I think that's probably the demarcation line nowadays. I think that's a good call out. I've really enjoyed this. I want to direct everyone's attention to this report. I think it's really worth your time. It's from Optimove Insights. It's called 2025 Consumer Holiday Retail Shopping Survey. You can go get an Optimove's site. We'll put a link on the show notes. We'll have a really easy to find [00:40:30] link in the YouTube as well. Really worth the read. It's very data rich. It's about 26 to 27 pages or so. Really, really appreciate all the insight that you all bring to the table. And Optimove has been a great partner of ours here. As you're looking forward to the future, are there any shifts that you see coming ahead? Anything in positionless marketing that you think will change the speed of human personalization and what we should be looking forward to?

[00:40:57] Moshe Demri: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We see [00:41:00] the changes kinda in front of us already happening. The main one for us is our own content because when it comes to data, to insights, to orchestration, using AI for those things, we've done those things years back.

[00:41:18] Phillip: Yeah.

[00:41:19] Phillip: But the problem or the challenge often our clients faced was, "I have all of this data. I have all those segments. How do I create enough content [00:41:30] pieces, images, copy, to actually communicate with all of those segments because they are different?" So, obviously, now with AI, with the use of AI, it becomes quite easy. So you don't need a team of copywriters, a team of designers to send an email out. You can repurpose a lot of content. You can write yourself. You can do some subject lines, some basic stuff. You still end up a design team, [00:42:00] but they are creating a library you can choose from and work with AI in order to execute much faster. So that's very exciting for us because it removes a barrier that we've been dealing with for many years. So we already see it happening. And I think with agents and everything else that is happening, we'll see a lot more coming to positionless marketing for sure.

[00:42:30] Phillip: This [00:42:30] is a really great place to end it. I think it's a great future leaning, future forward, positive outlook. Really appreciate your partnership. Really appreciate what you guys are doing for this whole industry. Thank you so much.

[00:42:42] Brian: Thank you.

[00:42:43] Moshe Demri: Thank you, guys.

[00:42:44] Phillip: Appreciate you Moshe. Alright, you guys can find more about Optimove over at futurecommerce.com/optimove and we're gonna put the link to the report here. Thank you so much for checking out this episode of Future Commerce. You can find more about future commerce over at futurecommerce.com. And we will see you [00:43:00] next time.

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