[00:00:14] Phillip: This is our first episode that we're recording in 2026. And I can't think of a better way for us to get started in the new year, Brian, than welcoming back one of our favorite people to sit down and talk with. I think we partnered all last year, in 2025, together. It's Pini Yakuel, the CEO and founder of Optimove. We talked a lot last year, Pini, about positionless. We talked about how AI is changing the mode and modality of the positionless marketer. But today, I think we're going to talk a little bit about how you wrapped up 2025 over at Optimove. We're going talk a little bit about maybe a book that you're writing. Welcome back to Future Commerce, and I can't wait to hear what you have planned for 2026.

[00:00:56] Pini: Hello, Brian. Hello, Phillip. Great to be here again. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:00] Phillip: Yeah. Well, what was 2025 like for Optimove? And tell us a little bit about how the year shaped up, and how positionless as a message came across in your marketing and how your customers fared.

[00:01:13] Pini: Yeah. So 2025 was a great year for us. This is the year where the positionless marketing brand was also born. So we kind of, like, went all in, and Optimove today is a positionless marketing company. If you go to our website, you'll see it's front and center. This is who we are as a business. So it's not only kind of like this movement that we are leading, it's also a product decision and a positioning decision to go all in with that. It was very much well received. Sometimes people at first kind of like the word itself can be...if they're not into basketball, they don't have the basketball reference...it sounds sometimes a little bit, uh... They don't necessarily get it right away, but it's always intriguing. And it's a super positive message that people get and understand. It reinforces human potential, our ability to be versatile as people, and also welcomes the AI revolution. So altogether, it's very, positive.

[00:02:10] Brian: When I sat down with you and Nick Badminton at Optimove Connect earlier this year when you first unveiled positionless and how far you've developed it now. And now, it sounds like you're closing in on completing a book around the topic, which is incredible. Tell us more about that.

[00:02:29] Pini: Yeah. So we...kind of like, to lead a movement, we felt like we also need a book. And also for me, it was a way to deepen and kind of like go further in with research and this entire topic. So the beginning was––we met at Optimove Connect last year––I would lead my keynote with this idea. First year was just a keynote. Second year was a keynote. We also branded the entire trade show as Optimove, as the home of positionless marketing. And then kind of like went all in in August and we rebranded as the positions marketing platform being Optimove. And the next step is a book that I'm writing and just started to work on this book a few months ago. And I'm also very happy to say that I'm partnering on this book with my wife, who's a novelist. So I have the help of an actual artist helping me write this book. Hopefully, it's going to make the book very entertaining and enjoyable to read on top of being thought-provoking and providing help for practitioners who want to get better at what they do.

[00:03:37] Brian: Incredible. Incredible. And you were telling us a little bit about the book. It has a fun conceit to it. It's like a travelogue, or a travel memoir, almost, of your thinking and viewpoint, to get to this idea of positionless.

[00:03:52] Pini: Yes. So this was actually kind of like when I started writing it––I'm an engineer. So I was kind of like...I started to organize the topics and the different themes of positionless. Was like, okay, we got to talk about assembly lines. I'm an industrial engineer. I know can educate people a lot about assembly lines and the revolution, the industrial revolution, the steam engines, how everything came about. And then we have another chapter about being positionless in other fields like basketball and football and MMA. And so I started to create the structure of the book like thematically and like a machine that you structure from beginning to the end. And then when I, kind of, like, had my wife join me––and she's a very gifted writer, but also doesn't know a lot about business, and to be honest, doesn't care a lot about business––she read it and was like, "Look, we gotta make it fun for people to read. We gotta make it enjoyable." And then she had this idea. She said, "Why don't we make it a travel memoir? Kind of like, tell me how you––I know how you think about positionless today, but tell me how your thinking has evolved over time."

[00:05:09] Brian: That's so cool. And that process was is something that it took time. Like, it wasn't an overnight thing where you just had this epiphany. It was something that it was a process, a journey, if you will.

[00:05:25] Pini: Right. I think it's somewhat of an identity that you have, but mostly kind of like you take it for granted or you just move with it or roll with it. But when I started thinking about it, there's probably a reason why I felt compelled to put the two together, right? To take an analogy from basketball and apply it into the business world because this is something that's a deal to my heart. And then when I started thinking about it and going back in time, I was like, first of all, as a person, I epitomized the notion of positionless. I'm very much kind of like, jack of all trades, master of none... Right-brained, left-brained person. You know, I can solve a math problem, but I can also talk to you about something super artsy. And then when I started to think about it, I was like, okay, why am I like that? Okay, partially some of it is genetics, some of it is but a lot of it is also cultural influence. Thinking of it, I was like, "Wait, Israelis are pretty versatile people. Okay, it's a small place. It's a small country, not a lot of people. Everybody knows one another." And this is something that characterizes a lot of small places where people need to be more independent. So they need to know more about more things, because there's no solid systems and foundations that you can rely on. You need to be more crafty, right? I think it's something that characterizes a lot of small places, not necessarily Israel. And then I thought about, what's the first exposure of this type of behavior?

[00:07:11] Pini: There's something in the words, the way...the biggest compliment you get: Two words that are talked about all the time over there is something called Rosh Gadol. Rosh Gadol, when you translate it literally, it means big head. "Why aren't you being more big headed?" Of course, sounds funky in English. What it means is like, "I want your head to think about more things that it's currently thinking." So, if I'm asking you to do something, I want you to do what I've asked, but I also want you to look further and see if there's a problem with something that I've asked and offer to do. So I ask you to do A and B, you come back and you say, "Yeah, I did A and B, but we also needed to do D because otherwise it would have been this and this and that." And that's the greatest compliment you can get is that you are Rosh Gadol. You cover more ground than what I actually expected or told you to do. I want you to go further. And by the way, in opposite, the biggest insult is you are Rosh Gatan, meaning like small headed.

[00:08:15] Phillip: Small headed. {Laughter}

[00:08:16] Phillip: Like you're just like a robot. It's like, "Hey, what do you want from me? You told me to do A and B." "But didn't you see that there was a huge problem with doing only A and B?" It's like, "What do you want? You told me to do A and B. So I did it, A and B."

[00:08:29] Phillip: This concept of positionless just resonates so much is it seems to be the default mindset for people who are utilizing these tools in those that are being built into platforms like Optimove now, but also anybody who has a subscription to ChatGPT is becoming more big headed today. They're becoming more resourceful because they tend to be reaching for these tools in more capabilities and using these tools in more areas, not just in their in their careers, but in everyday life. it's becoming more utilitarian to how can I apply this in all of these scenarios and situations where large amounts of data processing? And it's not just for question and answer, it's, I can accomplish so much more in my role and remove obstacles. And that way it's not just about refactoring what an assembly line used to be. It's, I can rethink the entirety of how the processes around my job in my systems and optimization of my systems can work. And I can actually become much more experimental, and much more creative in the process. And I think that's what we really have this opportunity to explore here. A lot of data too that you guys have put out in exploring this too over the last year that you've been looking at as to how AI has been adapting folks in the marketing position, how they've been responding to using AI in their roles too.

[00:10:08] Phillip: Maybe we could take a little bit of a dive into some of that, because I think that's really, really interesting. For instance, the Forrester study you all commissioned, we'll link it up in the show notes so that the listening audience and those watching can take a look at it. It's AI and marketing closing the gap between promise performance. It shows that 18% of marketers are at the leading edge of AI adoption. That I think is really says it's about one in five. I think pretty high in that folks are adopting it quickly, but it shows that there's a huge opportunity still for adoption. And you said that change is hard because it involves a mindset change, um, not just a technology adoption change. So my question for you, Pini, is like, what does it look like for leaders to successfully rally their teams around that mindset change and not just the tool adoption change?

[00:11:01] Pini: So so I'm gonna be very boring in this interview because I'll be always answering the same way, and I'll say positionless. And what I mean by that is I think that's the key, meaning. Meaning. So if I'm a marketing leader and I have a team of marketers working in B2B or B2C, whether it's brand or something else, if I encourage my people to go wider and basically analyze the way the work is being assembled at the moment. And which tasks or which skills or capabilities are required to assemble that work. And I'm saying, okay, I still need the specialists, but can I call upon them with lesser frequency? Can I use them less than I'm using them today? So can I assemble a piece of work instead of going through three specialists? Can I do it by going through in two via two specialists at 50% of the times, not 100% of the times? So it's about asking those questions and then how do you close the capability gap or the skill gap with AI tools? So can I use an AI tool that allows my data guys to do simple level design in some instances? By respecting the guardrails and the protocols that the designers have wrote for the data guy. So never go beyond these two lines. But inside here, this is our style guide and this is what you do.

[00:12:42] Pini: Same way, how can I help my designers do simple data tasks with thelp of AI to assemble a piece of work because the data work over there, they don't need the data guys for that because it's pretty simple? But in the past, they would just never touch it because they don't touch data, right? Or the designers will say Or the data guys say, We never touch design because we're data guys, right? So once you start to break that type of thinking and do this drill of let's map how work gets assembled, right? We have 20 different types of missions that we do and 50% of them of this one. This is like we have our Pareto analysis, right? So we need to go through four different departments of specialists and each one of them does ABC. And we just start to map how work gets assembled. And you say, what skill do we need to equip who in order to shorten that cycle, order to go through less departments? And once you start to do that, probably marketers adopt AI for copywriting, they adopt AI for just writing and content marketing. So there's so many things that marketers can do and people can do with AI. But to me, to lead this, you need the right mindset.

[00:14:03] Pini: And I do deeply believe, I don't believe in like there's a lot of people that are thinking they're basically more bullish than I am. They think that it's taking over everything and it's just a matter of time. Maybe that's correct. And everything could be replaced at some point. I just look at it from a human perspective and us being enhanced and us being more versatile and us being able to do a lot more with less and us, that's how I see it, right? I look at it as a tool that allows me to optimize myself to get, a... If Pini's working ten hours a day, get can a yield which is 30% more, 40% more? Can I have my developers working with Cursor and Clothecode, and all of those things produce 50% more features with 25% greater quality, right? So you want the speed and the So that's always how I'm looking at it. And I think that's the healthy way to look at it. I don't think you should think about removing the person. You should just think about how are you going to use them more effectively. Some things on the edge would probably be removed completely, just like in every technological revolution. So to me, it's always about I think that's the approach you should look at those things with the positionless mindset.

[00:15:29] Brian: Yeah. And I think that's exactly it. The mindset change is actually kind of the hard part because you're no longer it's not as simple of a translation. Remember when we moved from writing things with pencils to using word processors for everything? That was a one to one transfer. It was like, Oh, used to write with pencil, now can type faster. Was simple. Then we had to work through desktops and visualize these spaces that were imaginary. This is a much much bigger jump because what it's saying is information's sort of at your fingertips. You can get an assessment, maybe a median assessment of a situation or a thing you should do or a thing you should create from some of these tools. And then your judgment, your sort of big headedness, your looking at things from first principles or taking ownership or going above and beyond, whatever it is, whatever you wanna call it, is actually the thing that is the skill set. The skill set itself is the way you think about it. Yeah. This and then making decisions. It's like consumption and making decisions is the work. If you can't make decisions for yourself, you can't work with AI.

[00:16:59] Pini: 100%.

[00:16:59] Phillip: So...Not to...not to bang on this even more, but this is the question: If one in five––or 18% in the study, but let's round it up. I'll be generous––Let's say one in five are at the leading edge of adoption right now. That leaves the opportunity for four and five in a business to get this uptick, this uptick in more of the big headed thinking, Pini. Right? So, if we have this opportunity in our businesses, that means there's plenty more you know, there's plenty more efficiency to be gained in business. There's plenty more of us productivity to be gained in business. So I think that there there is a ton of opportunity ahead of us. But I have to wonder if in your in your opinion is is the four out of five in our teams? Are they all cut out to be positionless? And that's the question I think that some people fear is are our teams able to be transformed into positionless teams? How do we get from A to B? And that's, I think, the question that the data is going to have to help us to to point to is we have to serve the the twenty twenty six consumer. I get we'll get to that in a second here. But that consumer is also using AI and that consumer is becoming more savvy too. Right. So I'm curious what you think about the the transforming of the organization.

[00:18:35] Pini: I think 100%, I've zero doubt about that. And it's because people have range. That's just a fact. Maybe some of them have more range, some of them have less range, but people have range. That's a fact. And I think we all would agree that if you talk to lots of people doing whatever work they're doing today, they're going to tell you that the range is not being utilized. Wouldn't you agree? Probably a lot of people believe

[00:19:06] Phillip: Oh, 100%.

[00:19:07] Pini: 100%, right? Everybody thinks that they probably, maybe even in their personal lives, they have much more range than they have in their professional lives because in their professional lives, in many cases, they're being pigeonholed into this, like stay in your lane. That's what you're supposed to do. You are a copywriter. Don't talk to me about data. Like, why are you talking about this? So to me, when you ask me that question, yes, maybe we can argue about the level of range. That's fair. That's fair. So if we would argue, if cut we it down, if we look at a piece of work being assembled and right now it's going through six departments of specialty, I'll say we can cut it down to three departments 80% of the times. You say, Pini, no, think I we cut it down to four departments 60% of the time. Maybe, maybe. Then we have an argument or a debate or depends on the situation. That's fine. But I'm still saying we can definitely cut it down and we can definitely increase range. That's my main in point.

[00:20:20] Phillip: Yeah. I think well said. Well, well said. And I love the optimism in there too, because I fully agree that we the transformation within an organization is one that is possible to be undertaken. Yeah.

[00:20:33] Pini: I'll give you I'll give you another example. You know that there's a classic you know, managerial dilemma, right? So there's an exec let's say you have an executive and that executive is very much involved in everything, right? And they take all decisions and they're very heliocentric, let's call it like that. And also they're very smart and fine. So what culture would that create in the team? Right? So the team will probably wait for orders and they'll mostly execute exactly what they were told. They're to initiate less. They're going to come up with less ideas. Now let's say that executive is now, God forbid, something medical happened, health issue, they're gone for ninety days. What's going to happen? Right? Automatically, people will step up, right? People will do more. People will take more decisions. People, you'll see that they have more mental fortitude all of a sudden. There are hundreds of studies about that, right? That's just the way human nature works, right? We see it in sports. We see it all the time. So I think it's the same thing. Like when you allow people Now we as executives, we need to architect the right positionless framework, right? And if you look at basketball, I'm a big basketball buff and we talked about it.

[00:21:58] Pini: So now I'm obsessed with Denny Avdia because I'm Israeli and he's hopefully going to be an all star. So I'm watching the trailblazers like crazy. I can tell you, I'm like a Portland native right now. I watch Rip City wrap up, Rip City wrap up every day, almost the entire hour. They talk about their center, Donovan Klingen, that now he's starting to shoot threes and he's getting much better at it. And now it's required from the five to be able to shoot the three ball because that space is the floor. And it changes the entire dynamic of the offense. Like, that's how the new game is played. So he's a guy, he's 20, 21, he's young. I don't know. But he's like, I think it's his second year. And he's starting to work on his three ball. And if he's open, he's going to take him. And the coach says, yeah, if you're open, take him. And he's starting to make him. And now defenses need to adjust. The five position today, they're not genetically shooting better than twenty years ago. They're not. They're just required to do it now. So guess what? They start to train on it and they repetition and they get good, they get good at it. So I think it's just a question of if executives buy into the fact that people can have more range today because every one of us, we have the best personal tutor in our pockets available 20 fourseven.

[00:23:36] Pini: Of course, we need to validate and sometimes the tutor can lie and sometimes the tutor can make stuff up, can make stuff up. But we have access to knowledge on every field to an endless degree. We have access to experts, deep, deep, deep experts almost in every field at our pocket. Especially if we know how to ask questions and interact with that intelligence and question it and validate with it. And also, I think also kind of like our generation putting us together here for a second, we've worked enough years without it. So we can also judge what we're getting. I think it's a big question what's going happen to our kids when they get an answer. They've never had to decipher and take decisions and judge without it. But but I think we are we are one of the greatest beneficiaries because, I've had like forty-five years of just being me alone without having to ask my dad or my uncle or my mother or somebody like that or a good friend.

[00:24:42] Brian: Kids are starting to find a way through this actually very, quickly. So what I'm seeing with my kids, and I think this is actually it's actually kind of important for us that sort of the the older generations, not Gen Alpha, but to kinda take some cues here. Because what I see my kids doing is they especially my oldest who's mid teens, he has a dirt bike. And if you know anything about dirt bikes, if you ride them, they break. If you ride them hard, they're going to have issues. And so

[00:25:16] Pini: Oh, so he learned how to fix it himself?

[00:25:18] Brian: A 100%. I didn't do a thing. Wow. I didn't teach him anything. And he has replaced the carburetor. He's got into the engine. He's pulled off all the pieces. He's pulled the whole thing apart and put it back together. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. You know what?

[00:25:35] Pini: There you go. There you go. Range.

[00:25:37] Brian: Exactly. Range. Something he's never done before, he did not have anyone teach him how to do. He just used the tools that were available. You know what it is? It's a combination of ChatGPT or Perplexity or I think I started him on Perplexity and now he's on ChatGPT, but and validating things using YouTube. And so for him, actually, YouTube is the source of truth and ChatGPT is the faster way to get there. And so if he can use chat to go after something, he will or or he'll he may Google it or but but YouTube is the source of truth because those are the people that have actually walked through Yeah.

[00:26:24] Pini: Because you had you had a person yeah. YouTube's not gonna lie. Right.

[00:26:28] Brian: And so what what we're seeing is, like, there's a lot of ways to go find new skills through just working directly with the tool. And then if you bump into something that seems off or it's not working, then you validate via sometimes directly from the link that's already set in your tool. Anyway, my point in saying all of this is not to brag about my kid, I think that there is an open mindedness that's required when you're coming to these things that's actually kind of like a child. You kind of have to open up and be like a kid again when you approach these tools and not bring too many preconceived notions about how that endpoint will go. And of course, I have a lot more to discern than my kid does. I'm not saying we should throw that out the window, but there's almost an element of being like a child when you come to these tools and being curious and just playing with them and going with it. I think that mindset is part of this sort of big thinking, which is be curious and be open minded as you approach this and don't assume you can't do something. And that takes a little bit of unlearning, I think, for certAI in generations. And it also reminds me of and this is a massive generalization, but we've had all these years of complaiining about how Gen Z were just handed tools that were pre built and were like, oh, they don't know how to use computers because they were just handed these really slicked apps and tools and so on. I think that what millennials experienced and Gen X and boomers to some degree where they had to decipher and figure things out, Gen Alpha is seeing that all over again with AI. And you can make the opposite case, oh, they're just being fed things and they don't have to think through it and they don't and then their brain in's just being taken over. But there's also like, I think it's just the same as anyone ever. If you come to technology with curiosity, that actually pushes your brain further.

[00:28:43] Pini: Right.

[00:28:45] Brian: If you want to learn how to master the tools, you're pushing yourself further and harder, and AI will actually push you further and harder than you have ever been pushed before. If you come to it like, oh, I just need to get A and B done like I was told, then it is a brain in lobotomizer. Like, you don't have to think about it. So, yeah, I love that viewpoint. It is a mindset switch more than anything else. Just I agree.

[00:29:16] Pini: I agree. It's a mindset. There you go.

[00:29:20] Phillip: Pini, this is you know, so far, I think we've you've really I think built on such a foundation of some of the things that we've covered in the last couple conversations we've had with you. I do want to underscore some of the data that you all have been building in 2025 because you have such a phenomenal content team and research team over there at Optimove. I do want to point over at a 2025 marketing fatigue report that you all have published. Again, we'll link it down in the show notes. You know, keeping brands top of mind without over messaging, without over inundating customers with marketing messages. I think we all just live through Black Friday, Cyber Monday, which I think some people have also dubbed national unsubscribe from email day. There an opportunity I think with personalization and maybe some marketing optimization technology that we might see coming through tools like Optimove. Your research shows that positionless marketing in this marketing fatigue report that it positionless marketing drives campaign efficiency by 88%, where campaigns that took weeks now take days. Marketing fatigue report shows 70% of consumers unsubscribe from at least three brands within three months. Give me a little bit about what marketing leaders need to understand about this dynamic to best allocate communications without overwhelming audiences? If

[00:31:01] Pini: You think about it, personalization has been a big promise for at least two decades. And vastly, it hasn't really been achieved. So maybe some brands at points in time, for a period of time, then they lose the talent that let it, then it goes, it deteriorates again. Mostly what you see is that the cost of personalization is really high because to produce or to assemble a campaign that's very much personalized, it's much, much harder. Or you just need to do a lot more campaigns or you need to do one that's a lot harder. So people still default back into, let's just blast them. Okay. Let's blast all our actives. Let's blast. Okay. Yeah, they did. Yeah. We emailed them four times a day. Let's email them the fifth time because just in case maybe now they're going to be interested. Or it all goes into the promotion tab in Gmail, so who cares, right? So there's a lot of that going on. And if you really, really ask consumers, Hey, do you have a really great experience or a great personalized experience with a specific brand? How did it look like? You'll see that 95% of the times you're not going to get somebody telling you I had a really good experience because largely so, people still batch and blast, largely so what dictates messaging is merchandising.

[00:32:30] Pini: People want to push merchandise and they don't necessarily want to build something with the consumer, build a relationship. They mostly want to push merchandising because they're saying, Look, it's too hard. I'm probably not going to succeed at it, so I might as well just push merchandising and get the revenue up. And that's how it works. And the reason it's like that is because it's very, very difficult to scale personalization. That's the bottom line. It's almost impossible to scale it. You need a great team, a smart team. You need good technologies. You need to know about data, about customer analytics, the mod predictive models. Then you need to schedule the whole thing and admin the whole thing across a bunch of systems typically. Typically, there's a few systems. And sometimes the organization itself is structured in a way that email's over there, loyalty's over there, data is over there. So everything just defaults to a non personalized experience. And we believe that with the positionless marketing revolution where a smaller team will be allowed to do more, more work, more campaigns can be assembled. Then the speed from ideation to execution goes up. Then there's a lot more personalized campaigns. You delight customers and then customers reward you with loyalty. So that's how we see this loop kind of like tightening.

[00:33:56] Phillip: Yeah. And getting, like you said, having the experience, what drives folks in marketing to have greater amounts of experience is, I believe a faster loop in trial and error and having more experimentation. And so I believe that we might even have in this it's all presumption conjecture here, but we might even see an acceleration in people's ability to learn and take and accelerate their their path to learning and have experience in the field because of the tightened time in campaign cycles, because getting experimentation and data on experimentation, shorting campaign cycles and getting things out the door quicker means that you can get experience faster as well. So I think all of that really just tracks to brands benefiting on the other side. I think this has just been such an interesting year of having this conversation. 2026 seems like it's shaping up to be a really interesting year ahead. I always love asking you what's coming ahead. Optimove Connect is coming in March. What is 2026 look like for you, Pini, and for Optimove?

[00:35:25] Pini: Yeah, so 2026 for us as a business, we expect to continue to grow, continue to sing the positionless gospel. And we're looking at some big M&As as well, which we're basically brewing right now. So hopefully still in Q1, we can announce something pretty big. And yeah, just basically, we have set the path and now we need to walk it. So that's mostly what it is, to execute on the vision that we have. For me personally, I'm excited about the book. I'm going to feature it. The first edition is going to feature Optimove Connect. So, yeah, it's an exciting year for us and we continue to believe in this path and of course, the investments in AI inside of the Optimove platform. The Optimove platform itself is a platform built for positionless marketers because they can do almost everything inside Optimove. It's a true one stop shop. And it's just designed for the speed of ideation to execution because you don't have to go through the different departments and different specialists, you have to go through them way, way, way less often. Yeah, obviously, AIs very big for us. Execution is very big for us because with AI, we can execute much better and much faster a more efficient capacity. And yeah, it's something a lot of exciting things, the journey continues.

[00:37:04] Phillip: We'll be checking in with you. Really excited to see what's next for Optimove. And congrats on everything to this point. I'll be checking in with you on the January 22 when the Heat face off against the Trailblazers.

[00:37:18] Pini: Oh my god. Oh my god. Where is that? Is it in Miami?

[00:37:23] Phillip: It's at Portland. Yeah.

[00:37:24] Pini: Okay. Well Okay.

[00:37:26] Phillip: Yeah. Uh, expect a text from me.

[00:37:28] Pini: I think so. I think we lost to you guys.

[00:37:31] Phillip: You did. You lost, uh...

[00:37:32] Pini: The last... Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:32] Phillip: So we'll see what happens.

[00:37:33] Pini: Were badly injured, by the way. We are badly injured.

[00:37:36] Phillip: We're not doing so well either.

[00:37:39] Pini: Yeah. Everybody. Everybody. Right? Every team has that. That's also interesting how it happens so often compared to.

[00:37:46] Phillip: Pini, glad to have you. Thank you for joining us.

[00:37:49] Brian: Thank you.

[00:37:49] Pini: Thank you, folks. Appreciate you.

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