[00:00:00] Phillip: We're experiencing a mass psychosis event, Brian. It's happening, like, right now. And this — it's like happening right before Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day, which may be the number one box office. It's not gonna be the number one box office.

[00:00:13] Brian: I feel like there's like a whole marketing campaign going on around that movie that's like really — it's like guerilla marketing. It's grassrootsie. It's...

[00:00:25] Phillip: It's nice of Swatch to get in on the mass psychosis event. This is part of the marketing campaign of it.

[00:00:33] Brian: Exactly.

[00:00:33] Phillip: We — I did not have in my 2026 bingo card for one of the — I've been on the Swatch train for a little while, but I did not have that they would pair with one of the most exclusive, hard to get, ultra luxury timepiece brands in the world to pair up with them. And so today we're actually going to talk a little bit about that. A little bit later on we're going to have Michael Miraflor, the, I think, terminally online expert in all things advertising and brand, will join us, give him — give us his take. He's gonna join us live from New York. He's at Upfronts right now where he, I guess, just not even twelve hours ago, got in trouble for surreptitiously taking pictures of Olivia Rodrigo at an event at CastleGames. Just let the man take his pictures. But he will join us. He's gonna give us a little bit of a... Um, but for those who are not aware of what the actual story is and why we care about it, I'll give you a little bit of the background. So we cover on occasion the store experiential design, and we have that under our premium subscription called Future Commerce Plus. And so one of those store experience design ratings that we have covered under our Field Notes product is the Swatch store. And Swatch has been on a tear lately, Brian.

[00:02:07] Brian: Mhmm.

[00:02:07] Phillip: I, myself, own Swatch. We have some classic Swatches here in the house, and the kids are really into Swatches nowadays. And I think a lot of the resurgence of the Swatch brand can be owed to the Swatch Group launching, around the pandemic, a collaboration with the Omega Speedmaster. And if you're not familiar, we — I think the most famous story, or the background of the story of the brand of Omega, is that this is the watch that went to the moon. And so when they launched the collaboration, they sort of teased it as it's a very high-low collab. Right? Swatch is a very inexpensive and accessible brand. And then Omega is a luxury brand, but it's a very expensive watch. And so the two of them coming together, even though they're part of the same group and part of the same, you know, watchmaking group. And I believe at this point, Brian, I believe they're the largest watchmaking conglomerate in the world, although they may not — do I think Rolex definitely does more volume and does more money financially than them, but they own more brands than anyone.

[00:03:31] Brian: Mhmm.

[00:03:31] Phillip: And so I believe Tissot, I believe Longines, I believe Blancpain — I believe there's, like, a dozen brands or more that are all part of Swatch Group. So Omega coming together with Swatch made a lot of sense, and they own a ton of retail outlets. But we, seeing the rise of Swatch, we went and we checked out the Swatch store. And if you wanna go see our Swatch Field Notes, you can go get it — futurecommerce.com/fieldnotes. We'll link it up in the show notes. But watching the rise of Swatch has been an incredible thing. You see lines, Brian, in malls. They lined up for days for the original Omega, and then they would just keep re-releasing it, and then they came up with new colors, and they'd re-release that. And then eventually released it online. Swatch in the first year made $300,000,000 on their Omega Swatch collab. I believe in the second year, I believe they did almost five hundred and fifty, six hundred million dollars in their Swatch collab, and they have crafted this out of what they're calling a Bioceramic composite material. Okay. So that's the background. They then created a second collab with another luxury brand in their group, called Blancpain, which was their first, like, automatic movement, which is a mechanical movement. It's not a quartz, you know, battery-required movement, for those who aren't the watch nerds in the room, and that didn't do as well. So that brings us to today. And, Brian, what we'll talk with Michael about is that there was, about a week ago, some teaser images came out from Swatch, where there's a big watch show —

[00:05:23] Brian: What did they know?

[00:05:25] Phillip: — in Geneva, that they said, hey, the real spectacle won't happen in Geneva at the big watch show called Watches and Wonders. It will happen later. And so this later was about a week ago where they started teasing a potential collaboration with another brand, and people started speculating, would this be AP, or Audemars Piguet? And that is an incredibly — it's not part of the group. It's not part of the Swatch Group. And this is where the mass psychosis comes in. Brian, catch us up on what has happened with the mass psychosis. What is happening?

[00:06:00] Brian: It's been a very similar sort of response to the Nike Tiffany collaboration, where we've seen everyone sort of imagine what this could look like, to the point where it was really hard to know if you were looking at an official image — which a lot of these represented themselves as — or if you were looking at somebody's dreamland. Most of it, all of it actually, until, what, yesterday, was dreamland. That was all just the Internet having fun and figuring out what they thought it might be like and releasing fake, you know, drops or whatever, and just kind of playing with the brands and having a good time with it. So this is, you know, really similar to what we witnessed with some, you know, some other luxury brands. Anytime there's a high-low collab like this, people get excited because it's their opportunity for accessibility. And it's something that, you know, they can have a little tiny piece of the real luxury brand through this collaboration. And so they're hyped. I mean, this is a moment. It's guaranteed to sell out. However, what's really interesting is when the actual image was released, people were a little bit freaked out by it. They're a little disappointed by it. Did not match any of the expectations of what they sort of were thinking it might look like. And so just like with Nike and Tiffany, people were like, meh. Actually, in this case, people are a little bit less like meh and more like, what is this?

[00:07:49] Phillip: Yeah. And I think that's where we'll get into it with Michael in just a little bit — that when Swatch alluded to a potential collaboration, they did call it Royal Pop. Royal alluding to Royal Oak, which is a very famous form factor. It's their, you know, a specific timepiece that is from Audemars Piguet. It's a, like, historical and a very famous piece that everybody would recognize. You've seen it. It's sort of like an octagonal — is it, yeah. One, two, three, four, five, six. It's like an octagonal face. And actually, this is a really interesting part of the story around why they may be coming together, is that many brands, including Casio and others, have sort of ripped off this, like, octagonal watch face shape over the years, with the bezel. And AP has just not been able to defend this as, like, part of their trademark design, and they actually lost a lawsuit in 2025, both in, I believe, Japan and the United States. And so, not being able to defend that, this might be them going on the offense, saying, we need to find ways for us to exercise control over that shape and our brand being recognizably tied to that shape as being AP. And instead of Casio — because Casio is, like, almost de facto being recognized with that shape, with a — I'm wearing it today. The G-Shock is like, this is the shape that is recognized with G-Shock now. So much so that they call these the Casioak, from Royal Oak.

[00:09:48] Phillip: Like, people — if you wanted that, this is the watch you buy, you can get it for like a couple hundred dollars now. And so this is almost them wresting that control over that design language, is what people are saying. But they're doing it in a different form factor. It's coming as a — yeah, what would, in the language of Swatch, be a pocket watch, which is the pop, which pops off of a lanyard that would go around maybe your neck. Thus, the Royal Pop. So why do we care? Right? We care because of the participatory nature of this, and why, in this particular moment, that consumers have more power than they've ever had before and that they can co-create with brands. And we — I'll just plug it. We have an entire 80-page book about this that you can grab for $20 over on futurecommerce.com, shop.futurecommerce.com. It's called The Multiplayer Brand, and it talks exactly about this effect and the consequences that it has for brands — about the way that brands believe they have control over their design language and the actual control that consumers have in being able to co-create with brands with the new tools that generative AI gives them. And this is why I'm calling it sort of a mass psychosis event, is that people wanting to wear it on their wrist is going to create an entire secondary and tertiary market of accessories and all sorts of other things that will give them the satisfaction that they really desire here. Brian, what do you think about all this?

[00:11:30] Brian: What I think — I think it's gonna be iconic. I really do. I think it's gonna be — it's the kind of thing that people are gonna buy multiple of. It's charming in its sort of appearance, and, you know, it's going to be that little pop that they're gonna throw on their bags, in their — you know, they're gonna accessorize with it. And to your point, I think people are gonna build around it, find ways to modify it. And people are gonna have multiple versions of it too, I think, depending on their outfit. There's fun colors that come with it. And, you know, this is the other thing that Swatch has done really well. They have been the customize it, have it your way sort of brand — that was part of our, like, exploration or Field Notes. The customization factor has always been huge for them. And so people taking this and doing fun things with it was actually in the charter, I think, of Swatch. I also think it's really interesting — Swatch gets a lot out of this too. You — obviously, obviously, they do. You know, getting to collaborate with a high brand like AP is — yeah, a big deal. But the fact that a luxury brand like AP, that has the quality stamp of approval they do, would be willing to put their stamp of approval on a Casio — or on a — on a Casioak, on a Swatch, is a huge, like, sort of reinforcement of the Swatch sort of "we're, you know, a quality brand."

[00:13:13] Brian: This is, you know, an actual Swiss watch. Like, this is — we're deserving of the kind of quality that AP would put their stamp on. And that's always been sort of in their charter as well, in their DNA as a brand. Like, we can compete with the best of them in terms of quality. So I think the collaboration makes a ton of sense from that angle too. And so if AP is trying to get their shape out there and, you know, get their form sort of out there to compete, Swatch is trying to prove and continue to sort of maintain this quality and sort of fun, customizable angle. This is kind of a match made in heaven, which is why I think this is gonna become something that's actually going to continue to sell out for a long time. And they're gonna release and re-release and bring all kinds of additional angles to, and maybe eventually even an official strap.

[00:14:20] Phillip: Let's see how it plays out, and I'm really interested to see how people continue to react. It's been about twenty-four hours. So, also, I wanna see what happens in Internet memory with all of these fake images, all the generative AI images that still linger out there. There's a million of them, almost literally. So we'll see how those go. Alright. Without any further ado, we will welcome in Michael. Michael Miraflor is here today. We've got you for a little bit. Michael, welcome. You are in New York for Upfronts, I believe, and thank you for joining us. I think we have you for just a little bit this morning. I think today we're gonna talk a little bit about the AP Swatch collab, maybe get your take, hot take, on a few things that are happening. But thanks for joining us.

[00:15:14] Michael: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I know that we don't have a lot of time, and I'm running around here in New York for Upfront, so I appreciate you guys for accommodating me.

[00:15:23] Phillip: Alright. You — and you're taking, like, the subterfuge pictures, risking life and limb to bring us virtually into those events. How is it right now up there? What's interesting? What have you seen so far?

[00:15:38] Michael: Let's see. I have to speak in, like, broad, like, sweeping generalities, I guess. I can't say anything specific. I'd say that the ad industry feels healthy when people meet together and you have clients and agencies and all the different networks and streamers. Everyone is all in the same city running from venue to venue. You know, this was an annual ritual for so long, and then, like everything else, got disrupted by the pandemic, and it's been coming back. Maybe there aren't as many people as there used to participate, but I would say it's a bit more diverse, which is really interesting. Like, it used to be just TV buyers. Now it's strategists, planners, you know, digital folks. So it makes for interesting conversations. But, you know, it's the part of the business in terms of, like, client service and, you know, the warm handshake and all that stuff that still goes a very long way — that I think a lot of people are missing, or might not realize that they're missing, but they hear about it so much. And that's really what it's all about this week.

[00:16:49] Phillip: Old school. But is the old school old school anymore? Is there — how much of the old school is still left? Is there — who's the dominant — is there, like, a dominant advertising, you know, voice these days? Or is there a dominant advertising medium that sort of, like, soaks up all the air these days? In our industry, retail media sort of soaks up all the conversation. Is it, like, connected TV soaks up all the conversation in those rooms? Like, what does that look like for you?

[00:17:21] Michael: Well, here — maybe here's a way to maybe illustrate that, or unpack that in an answer. So my schedule today is Warner Brothers Discovery, and then Netflix, and then YouTube RamCast.

[00:17:36] Brian: Okay. Got it. Got it.

[00:17:40] Michael: Um, so Fox was on Monday, and they used to throw a gigantic party on Monday evening, but now the big Monday evening party is the Amazon party, because Amazon had their upfront on Monday afternoon, and they took over the New York Public Library. So if, you know, if there's any proxy for — not it's not a changing of the guard or diversification of the players that are involved — it's that.

[00:18:06] Brian: Mhmm.

[00:18:07] Michael: It's like, you have Fox in the morning, then you have Amazon in the afternoon, and then you have Amazon throwing the big party in the evening. So it's like, you know, that didn't exist 10 years ago.

[00:18:16] Phillip: We don't have you for long. Have you walked by the Swatch store at all? We — our Field Notes product, you know, we did a, you know, retail store experience rating of Swatch there in New York. We've now for, like, eighteen months or so, maybe going back a couple years since the Omega Swatch collab — we've really been sort of watching for a few years the rise of Swatch and the way that people have really come around on the brand. I'm wearing my Casioak in honor of today's conversation. I'm curious, what have you seen — the lines that I've been seeing posted around — and what's your read on the word on the street there in New York?

[00:19:04] Michael: I haven't had the opportunity to check out too much retail on the strip yet. Have not passed by a Swatch store. You know, I've seen photos of the lines, or what's left of them since the big reveal yesterday. I think it's — I don't know. The whole thing is entertaining, yeah, as I'm sure it has been to you. I think it's, like, mass brand psychosis or something. It's like —

[00:19:27] Phillip: Yeah.

[00:19:27] Michael: It's a combination of, like, AI rendering psychosis of what people think it should look like, or what they're looking forward to. And then there's the reveal yesterday, and then it was really interesting to see the emotional roller coaster that everyone went on in reaction to it. Right? Yeah. Like, there was a moment where there was, like, an hour where everyone was disappointed, especially people who wanted it to be sort of just a Bioceramic replica of a Royal Oak, which it was never going to be. They would never do that to themselves. Right? And then over the course of the afternoon, you saw it kinda, you know, you saw it kinda bifurcate, where people say, you know, there are very unique qualities about what is essentially, like, a pocket watch.

[00:20:10] Phillip: Mhmm.

[00:20:10] Michael: Right? And then you get the conversation around, well, I mean, it's not like we're going to, like, you know, just buy it and use it as intended. We're gonna modify this thing, or, you know, there will be third-party straps, or — mhmm — then the whole Labubu conversation started. Yeah. That's really interesting. Like, no, no, this is, like, the ultimate accessory. Like, you're not gonna show it off as you show off a wristwatch. You're gonna show it off, like, in a way that people were showing off their Labubus — which, you know, that can go in very many different directions. And then this morning, I woke up to, you know, people basically arguing that, like, you know, it can stand on its own merit. Like, this is the most interesting high-low brand collaboration that we've seen in a while. And the explosion of social conversation and the amount of AI activity, or generative AI activity, was, you know, it's really interesting. And I don't know if this is a leading indicator of how people are gonna continue to react to, you know, collaborations of this nature, or if it's just — or if this sort of behavior and reaction is reserved for just these special moments that are so unexpected. It felt like they speed-ran this. Like, we all found out about this collaboration, what, a week ago or —

[00:21:19] Phillip: That's right.

[00:21:19] Michael: — maybe a little bit more than —

[00:21:20] Phillip: A week ago. Yeah.

[00:21:22] Michael: The product reveal is yesterday, or was yesterday, and it's going to be available this weekend. That's really quick. So they didn't have, like, a long lead, you know, traditional PR sort of — and you tend to think of the Swatch Group and the brand as being, like, a bit old school, mhmm, in a way. You know, family owned. You know, they don't feel like they have to work at the speed of the Internet. They really — you know, they're not the most sophisticated brand when you look at, like, their ad tech or their martech stack. But then they do stuff like this, and you're like, okay, is this — is there — is this, like, a case where there's, like, a generation that is, like, old enough now to make decisions internally, and maybe they have the right sort of connections? Like, in a very, like, LVMH Arnault kind of way — oh, the next generation kinda set the tone for the past fifteen years of, like, the transformation of, like, say, Louis Vuitton. And you can argue that it's been a great thing. You can argue that it's been, like, a weird thing for the brand, and maybe it's cyclical, but maybe that's also happening over at Swatch Group, and maybe that's just what's happening with the industry.

[00:22:38] Phillip: There's a name that we gave to this during the Nike Tiffany sort of mass psychosis event that happened a few years ago, where we said there was, like, the Henry Jenkins sort of participatory economy that was, you know, now more accessible than ever because of tools like Midjourney, and now we have ChatGPT image and other tools that are more freely accessible. But the creativity of the participation of the crowd allowed for more fantastical representations and more creative representations. And I think that this played out almost to the opposite effect, to where the Royal Oak, the Audemars Piguet — like, the imagination of the crowd almost bore the same resemblance of the standard, and then the actual product that came out was way more fantastical and whimsical than what they would have imagined on their own. And so it was the same crowd dynamic, but it played out in the opposite way. And but, yeah, I think that there's still the disappointment —

[00:23:50] Brian: Mhmm.

[00:23:50] Phillip: — of the crowd, and the same rise and fall of a certain kind of a person who might be interested, almost like they're in it for the participation and not necessarily for the purchase effect of it. But I do think that there are some people who still want the product, and maybe they want the product more because of the novelty of the product, not necessarily because of the brand itself. And that is — I think the Labubu of it all is the interesting piece to it. I'm curious what you think about that, as the participatory nature of it and people getting into the conversation who maybe normally wouldn't.

[00:24:34] Michael: I mean, I enjoyed it. You know, you get your watch nerds. Right? You get your terminally online, in Reddit watch forum sort of people. Right? And then you get the online crowd that just needs to be informed about things that are new and relevant and interesting. And brand collaborations are always interesting, but I think over the past decade, collaborations have been defined as, like, you know, watered-down IP, like kind of squeezing out maybe the last dollars from IP, or a brand that has been stagnant. In this case, it's not quite that, and it's so high and low. And maybe we should — maybe that's a misnomer. Maybe it's not high-low. But, but, yeah, I haven't — sorry, I'm not sure if I'm directly answering your question. It's just it's so entertaining to me because everyone is participating in this conversation, and you see the watch nerds really kind of not struggle for credibility, but, like, their opinions matter because, you know, they come from a place of understanding, you know, the quality of the movement and the history behind the brand, and, like, they're more than likely to own an AP or have a lot of opinions about the entire landscape. So they come from a place of, you know, great context, but it kind of doesn't matter when, like, Twitter or the Internet as a whole is, like, overrun by generative speculative images. And a lot of them are good, but a lot of them are slop. And you see this weird collision of very well-informed nerds combating an onslaught of generative AI imagery — some good, most bad — and it's all part of the conversation in a very — I don't know if it's, like, Warholian, but it's just so interesting.

[00:26:24] Brian: Sounds like an industry right now.

[00:26:28] Michael: Yeah. But I haven't seen it happen with the explosion that has happened for this particular collaboration, just because it was so — you know, to your note about how fantastical the final product is. And I feel like we haven't heard the last about product features or the differentiation between the actual SKUs, because two of the color waves are actually offset in, like, a 90-degree fashion. Right? And they have an added, like, second complication, I believe. So it looks like it's designed to be turned on its side, as if it were intended to be worn on the wrist. And maybe I just missed that news, I haven't caught up, but I think that's really interesting. I think there's still a reveal to come. But, yeah, it's, you know — one has to wonder if this is playing out exactly how Swatch and AP wanted it to play out. Mhmm. Or if this is just, you know — or if they're enjoying it, or if they're losing their minds because maybe they didn't take into consideration, like, how emotional people can get about this sort of, you know, brand activity. But, but yeah.

[00:27:46] Brian: In a weird way, it kinda reminds me — and this doesn't have quite the hype buildup to it that this collaboration did, but the roller coaster ride of the reaction reminds me of the Big Arch a little bit. Because, mhmm, when people saw that happen, and for some reason that, like, kind of — someone picked it up and thought it was, like, weird, there was, like, the initial, like, heat, and then the swing back around to people being like, actually, hold on, this guy is actually pretty authentic, and maybe he had it right in the first place, after they saw all these other reactions. Like, it's not quite the exact same sort of play-out of events, but it feels like there's weird cycles now to reactions. And it's not just the first reaction that matters. There's a second, maybe even third, you know, sort of order reaction that happens within a matter of, like, a week or less. And —

[00:28:49] Michael: And I would argue — and this is, like, this is more empirical than anything, like, and I haven't seen anyone write about it — but I would imagine that most people's initial reactions, initial opinions based on their reactions to whatever it is, video, product announcement, news of this nature — I would imagine people's opinions on the topic changes based on the reaction from the rest of the crowd —

[00:29:19] Phillip: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Michael: — over time. And I wonder where most people land relative to what their initial opinion was. Right? In the case of AP and Swatch, I would imagine it's maybe cut fifty-fifty. And, again, it's been really interesting to see, like, certain individuals come all the way around to say, like, you know what, I didn't love it, but it's still worth it. And it has a place in the conversation, and it will, you know, have a place in my credit card bill, because I'm gonna buy one anyway, regardless of what anyone thinks, just because the purchase of the product is kind of a cap on the experience.

[00:30:00] Phillip: Yeah.

[00:30:01] Michael: It's sort of a totem, and it's evidence that you participated in the spectacle in a way, at least for the moments immediately after the product is actually released at retail. Right? There's gonna be an interesting window where if you have one, it's a certain kind of, like — in a weird way, it's sort of, like, online credibility. Right? Like, you were quick enough to, like, form an opinion, get informed, know how to get in line, know at which physical retail locations it's gonna be, and you pick one up the day of, the weekend of. And maybe for a week, maybe for a couple of weeks, it's gonna have a half-life where it's going to impress a certain type of person in real life. And then after that, you're gonna get, like, a flood of dupes and copies and counterfeits and —

[00:30:48] Brian: You're gonna — what kind of, like, reaction are we gonna see in the watch community in general? Like, are we gonna see other brands?

[00:30:54] Phillip: I'd say it's already happened. I mean, some people are like, I'm selling my Royal Oak. I'm over this.

[00:31:00] Brian: Oh, no. I mean, in other brands, though. Like, is there gonna be copycat behavior, you know, like with the Big Arch, which obviously was content. So Burger King and, you know, Wendy's could get in real fast. This is a product that takes time to build and release. Are we gonna see a wave of this sort of, like, collaboration around a unique piece, or even that exact sort of style of watch?

[00:31:30] Phillip: Bioceramic's been a thing. Right, right, Michael?

[00:31:33] Michael: Yeah. There was the Scuba Fifty Fathoms, I believe it was called. Yeah, just based on the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms. That one didn't do as well as the Moonswatch. I would say if you look across the landscape, like, that mid-tier of, you know, Casio, Timex, and who am I forgetting? Like, that mid-tier of accessible brands — they do collaborations on a regular basis. Right? But they're more traditional collaborations, more of, like, a volume play. It's not a hype. It's definitely not a high-low thing. I think AP is just so high up there. Mhmm. Like, legitimate luxury. I don't know if you've ever visited an AP house, but it is just, you know — it's impeccable. Right? I can't see another brand on that level doing a high-low collab anytime soon without an easy accusation that this is just — there's copying behavior of a competitor, to be sort of called out very quickly.

[00:32:45] Phillip: Richard Mille for G-Shock. That's — well.

[00:32:51] Michael: You never know. Maybe — maybe it is — maybe people will — maybe it will be a fast-follow thing. But you also have to wonder how long in the works this collaboration took. Like, I have no idea. I'd love to know. Like, when did that first phone call happen? How did it happen? Because with Omega and Blancpain, those brands are within this watch group that can be organized relatively quickly, at least on a corporate level. Right? AP is not. So, you know, this could be the result of a couple of years of conversations, or it could have happened pretty quickly. I would actually really love to read the backstory of how this came together.

[00:33:28] Phillip: There's one last thing. I appreciate your time. Thanks, Michael, for taking time out of your day. One last thing I think is interesting, and I don't know that I've seen anyone have a take on this before, but there seems to be some homage — and I know that we've had a lot of, I don't know, Y2K nostalgia homage. I mean, there's nostalgia in everything now — but there is a particular colorway of one of the Royal Pop pieces, the huit blanc, which is white, but it has multicolor screws around the face, which — I haven't seen anyone say. But for me, it feels like we don't have that without the Louis Vuitton Murakami. From — it feels like there's just a direct line to how you're supposed, or intended, to wear that. It's like — it's the LV rainbow meant to, like, color match with this particular piece. It's sort of giving a nod to "we know what we're doing, and we know who will wear this, and we know what you pair it with." And I just kind of — I just have a sense of a different, like, why that particular set of colors, why on that particular — like, rainbow on white to me just has a particular connotation, and especially in a luxury sense. And so I'm just curious if you have that same sense, if that strikes you in the same way.

[00:35:14] Michael: Yeah. That one's definitely special. I think all of them have backstories, and I'm — again, I'm going to look forward to reading why the colorways and the combinations and, again, the orientation of two of the pieces off to the side. Like, I'm sure that there are gonna be interesting explanations. That particular piece that you mentioned — the first thing I thought of when I saw that was, I didn't think of Murakami. I thought Damien Hirst. Kinda gave me a Damien Hirst vibe, or maybe even, like, Lichtenstein. Like, if you recall, like, the Damien Hirst, you know, his — the dots.

[00:35:52] Phillip: Sure.

[00:35:52] Michael: There's a name for that, that series. It's — this is from the same series where MSCHF cut up a print and sold individual dots at some point, like, five or six, maybe even longer, ago.

[00:36:06] Phillip: There's a halftone sort of look to that, the pop art of that era. So, yeah, the word escapes me as well. Where's my wife who's the artist who has the — I have to call on Jackie. This has been great. Thank you, Michael. We —

[00:36:22] Michael: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[00:36:23] Phillip: We always love having you. Appreciate it. Go follow Michael Miraflor. He's over on Twitter. We'll link him up in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Future Commerce. Find more episodes of this podcast at futurecommerce.com. And if you wanna pick up your copy of The Multiplayer Brand — find out just what the heck is going on in the world and why consumers care so much about what brands make and why they wanna try to co-create with brands — you can get your copy of The Multiplayer Brand at shop.futurecommerce.com, as well as all of our new print, including Strata, which is our newest book. Both of those are about 80 pages, and you can have them for about $20. Shop.futurecommerce.com, and we'll ship them straight to you. Remember, commerce shapes the future because commerce is culture. We'll see you next time.